Gospel Doctrine And D&c 132: The Tetraannual Discussion

[cinepro]

Smartaleck.

 

Do you really assert that the Vilate Kimball as Abrahamic Sacrifice story is generally unknown presently . . . or 50 years ago . . . or 100 years ago . . . or 150 years ago?

 

Yes, I assert that it is "generally unknown presently" among most LDS.  But that wasn't even the claim.

 

You said it is "all over the place", but I couldn't find it anywhere in the thousands of Church publications and curriculum(s?) on the Church website.  As far as I can tell, it's impossible to learn of the story from any official Church source.  If I missed something, please show me.

 

It might have been more widely known in the past, but it appears that the Church changed its mind about the usefulness of the story and now it is no longer "transmitted" to the members in any Church-approved form.

 

 

And regarding the story (and it's interpretation as an "Abrahamic Test" for Heber), we should probably ask if we would view the situation any differently if Joseph had instead told Heber that his duty was to kill his wife.  That would make it far more "Abrahamic", but would it change how we view the situation?

Edited September 13, 2013 by cinepro

[David T]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

To the extent history is a science, it should not be agenda-driven.  Don't care about the old dictum:  "The victors write the history."  We should be neither too fawning nor too indictful in our treatment of matters of historical importance.  A feminist-agenda-driven piece on Mormon women of the XIXth Century is presentism of the worst sort.

 

And yet the Church Historian's Department sees the scholarship presented in that volume significant enough to source and reference in its own seminal documentary history project - not as a historical document being referenced, but as a work of scholarship which makes connections and draws conclusions in elements that hadn't been made before that are viewed as valid... you might find many of the conclusions distasteful, but there is very much in his work that is useful and sound.

[Tacenda]

Yes, I assert that it is "generally unknown presently" among most LDS.  But that wasn't even the claim.

 

You said it is "all over the place", but I couldn't find it anywhere in the thousands of Church publications and curriculum(s?) on the Church website.  As far as I can tell, it's impossible to learn of the story from any official Church source.  If I missed something, please show me.

 

It might have been more widely known in the past, but it appears that the Church changed its mind about the usefulness of the story and now it is no longer "transmitted" to the members in any Church-approved form.

And add to that, I've mentioned on the Mormon Codex thread, Brian Hales book about JS's polygamy isn't available in the store, one must special order it.  I sure was excited to see it online until l went to the store to see it wasn't there.  So much for transparency.  I'm thrilled the church is making it possible through the JSP's and FAIR, but these places don't reach a big enough audience, in my book.  Not until it's in the curriculum, Ensign, DESERET BOOKSTORE, etc. Will it be enough.  Too many lives have been affected by the not knowing.  And then finding out.  It's abusive to members, I'm a living witness to how abusive.        

[David T]

And add to that, I've mentioned on the Mormon Codex thread, Brian Hales book about JS's polygamy isn't available in the store, one must special order it.  I sure was excited to see it online until l went to the store to see it wasn't there.  So much for transparency.

 

That depends on location, to be fair. I understand it is fully on display and available at the Church History Library bookstore, at BYU, and likely at some of the larger DB's. It really is about demand. And those are expensive books, and not everyone has the interest and money combo to go out on a limb to purchase it. DB is a business, after all.

 

Kofford Books (Hales' publisher) also doesn't have super massive print runs. Even Amazon is nearly out of stock for some of those volumes.

 

It being available through Deseret's  website is significant, though.

Edited September 13, 2013 by David T

[USU78]

Yes, I assert that it is "generally unknown presently" among most LDS.  But that wasn't even the claim.

 

You said it is "all over the place", but I couldn't find it anywhere in the thousands of Church publications and curriculum(s?) on the Church website.  As far as I can tell, it's impossible to learn of the story from any official Church source.  If I missed something, please show me.

 

It might have been more widely known in the past, but it appears that the Church changed its mind about the usefulness of the story and now it is no longer "transmitted" to the members in any Church-approved form.

 

 

And regarding the story (and it's interpretation as an "Abrahamic Test" for Heber), we should probably ask the question if we would view the situation any differently if Joseph had instead told Heber that his duty was to kill his wife.  That would make it far more "Abrahamic", but would it change how we view the situation?

 

It's even more "all over the place" today than it ever was.  "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces "About 2,060 results

(0.47 seconds)" on Google.

Agenda, my dear Cinepro.  Your agenda is showing.

 

And as for your refusal to put the Vilate Kimball as Abrahamic Sacrifice tale into its scriptural setting, but rather insist on a tortured and agenda-driven and, indeed, polemical AntiMormon read on the occurrence, please note that Section 132 expressly puts the Hagar incident into parallel with the Isaac incident, thus making of both incidents Abrahamic Sacrifices:

 

 32 Go ye, therefore, and do the ^aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

 33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

 34 God ^acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave ^bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

 35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, ^acommanded it.

 36 Abraham was ^acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not ^bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for ^crighteousness.

 

But keep sticking your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la" if that pleases you.

[David T]

And as for your refusal to put the Vilate Kimball as Abrahamic Sacrifice tale into its scriptural setting,

 

Where are presentations of this material that place it in this context? Where are they where your average members would have encountered them in their Church career, that don't rely on them having  to Google the terms "Vilate Kimball Abrahamic Sacrifice".?

 

I think you're missing the point here. You appear to be claiming this is not only a well known and popular Mormon History story, but that your interpretive lens of it is an even more strongly held view , and that refusing to acknowledge that members know and expressed and widely distributed and discussed this story is ridiculous.

 

I think the onus is on you to show how widely known among the membership this story - and your interpretation of it - is, before you make accusations of demanding a negative to be proved.

 

Cinepro isn't rejecting your interpretation as a viable way to interpret it (at least I don't think so). He appears to be challenging the appearance of an assertion that it's been widely known and discussed and taught among the membership for generations. Cinepro is asking for evidence, and you insult him, and rant something about an agenda.

 

Umm. Pot and Kettle, dude.

Edited September 13, 2013 by David T

[cinepro]

It's even more "all over the place" today than it ever was.  "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces "About 2,060 results

(0.47 seconds)" on Google.

 

So you admit that the story of Vilate Kimball being requested by Joseph as an "Abrahamic Sacrifice" is not currently told in any Church publication or curriculum on the website? 

 

And even if we accept your methodology (results of a Google search indicate the degree to which information is "available"), I would argue that your search terms are too specific.  Only someone who is familiar with the Vilate Kimball story in the first place would search for "Vilate Kimball + polygamy".   If we're talking about what the average LDS is going to learn, and how they're going to learn it, it's highly unlikely any of them are going to stumble across the story that way.

 

I would also point out that the first search result for "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy is the FairMormon article on "Divine Manifestations to Plural Wives and Families", and it doesn't actually mention the story of Joseph asking Heber for Vilate.

 

The second link is to a Word Doc with some references for the story (most of which appear to be out of print), so that would be a good way for someone to learn about it, if they knew the right search terms to begin with

Edited September 13, 2013 by cinepro

[cinepro]

Wow, the Heber-Vilate-Joseph story is more interesting than I knew. 

 

 

 

Heber's experience with plural marriage reveals much of Joseph Smith's approach and method of instruction. "Brother Heber," Smith announced probably sometime before the close of 1841, "I want you to give Vilate [Murray Kimball, Kimball's civil wife] to me to be my wife." "Dumb-founded," Kimball fell into a dark funk for several days. Finally, after pouring out his soul in prayer to God, he asked Vilate to accompany him to Smith's residence. After being ushered into a private room, Kimball turned to Smith and, pointing to Vilate, said, "Brother Joseph, here is Vilate." Smith, according to Kimball, "wept like a child" and immediately sealed the faithful couple "for time and all eternity," saying, "Brother Heber, take her, and the Lord will give you a hundredfold."

 

Throughout this episode, Vilate was evidently unaware of her husband's situation, for Smith also instructed Kimball at or around this same time to marry plurally without telling Vilate, a caution that would have been unnecessary if Vilate knew of Smith's doctrine. Heber agreed but grew conflicted about the subterfuge. Vilate eventually asked what was troubling him; and when Kimball explained his predicament, they settled on two elderly sisters who, they felt, "would cause [Vilate] little, if any, unhappiness." According to Lorenzo Snow, another early apostle and later LDS Church president, when Joseph Smith learned of Kimball's intention, he vetoed the plan, declaring that the "arrangement is of the devil you go and get you a young wife one you can take to your bosom and love and raise children by."

 

Smith then "commanded" Kimball to marry thirty-one-year-old Sarah Noon, whose husband had apparently deserted her. In fact, Kimball's grandson noted, "Heber was told by Joseph that if he did not do this he would lose his Apostleship and be damned." "I can say," Heber confided to Vilate, "I never suffered more in all the day of my life than since these things c[a]me to pass." "You have my first and best and Eternal love fore time and Eternity," he added on September 3, 1843. "And I pray God the Eternal Father to let you live while I live, fore thare is no Soul that can fill your place in my heart."

 

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V38N03_13.pdf

 

Edited September 13, 2013 by cinepro

[foster]

It's even more "all over the place" today than it ever was.  "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces "About 2,060 results

(0.47 seconds)" on Google.

 

Agenda, my dear Cinepro.  Your agenda is showing.

 

and this

"Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces site:lds.org"

 

gets four hits, none of which discuss Joseph Smith instructing Heber Kimball to give his wife Vilate to Joseph to be his wife and after Joseph realizes Heber would follow through Joseph tells them it was a test.

 

Again, where from Official Church resources was I suppose to have learned this information? And how early in my life should I have known about this incident?

Edited September 13, 2013 by foster

[USU78]

Wow, the Heber-Vilate-Joseph story is more interesting than I knew. 

 

Yes . . . and what about that story as here related is not reflective of an Abrahamic Test of Heber with Vilate as the Abrahamic Sacrifice?

 

Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son . . . Heber is commanded to sacrifice his wife

Sarah and Isaac are not brought into the "know" . . . Vilate is not brought into the "know"

Sarah doesn't find out till after/Isaac finds out on Moriah . . . Vilate finds out at the Smith residence

Isaac not ultimately sacrificed:  a ram is found . . . Vilate is not ultimately sacrificed:  plural wives for Heber are found

 

Am I the only one who reads Genesis any more?

[USU78]

and this

"Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces site:lds.org"

 

gets four hits, none of which discuss Joseph Smith instructing Heber Kimball to give his wife Vilate to Joseph to be his wife and after Joseph realizes Heber would follow through Joseph tells them it was a test.

 

Again, where from Official Church resources was I suppose to have learned this information? And how early in my life should I have known about this incident?

 

 

So sorry, but I must relate what my father, the WWII vet, used to tell . . . and frequently:

 

When GIs went to their chaplains to complain of booboos or harsh treatment by their superiors, the chaplains would hand them, at the end of their interviews, what became known affectionately as the "TS" card.  It stated:

 

Your trials and tribulations are breaking my heart.  They are unique in the annals of the Sorrow of Man.

 

I glance to the end:  "My gums bleed for you.  I feel for you.  But I just can't quite reach you."

[USU78]

So you admit that the story of Vilate Kimball being requested by Joseph as an "Abrahamic Sacrifice" is not currently told in any Church publication or curriculum on the website? 

 

And even if we accept your methodology (results of a Google search indicate the degree to which information is "available"), I would argue that your search terms are too specific.  Only someone who is familiar with the Vilate Kimball story in the first place would search for "Vilate Kimball + polygamy".   If we're talking about what the average LDS is going to learn, and how they're going to learn it, it's highly unlikely any of them are going to stumble across the story that way.

 

I would also point out that the first search result for "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy is the FairMormon article on "Divine Manifestations to Plural Wives and Families", and it doesn't actually mention the story of Joseph asking Heber for Vilate.

 

The second link is to a Word Doc with some references for the story (most of which appear to be out of print), so that would be a good way for someone to learn about it, if they knew the right search terms to begin with

 

Just went on Ebay to see if the Heber C Kimball biography cited at the end of your later post's citation's linkee, and found several copies of the out-of-print biography.  Both first and second editions, if anybody's interested.  Every HCK bio I've ever looked at has some version of the same incident, all appearing to agree in large part on details.

 

For our friend and esteemed self-proclaimed ignorant, I have a question:  For whom were these bios written?  Who read them?  How did people find out about them?  Answer:  Mormons knew about them; they bought them; they told the tales to each other; it was part of the folklore that the very famous and brutally  assassinated Heber C Kimball had passed this very famous Abrahamic Test to prepare him to become the amazing church leader he surely was by any standard.

[foster]

Usu, should we take your diversionary snide cantankerous retorts as an admission that your claim is without merit and has little if any applicability to members of the Church.

 

 

I will take this as a goading and off-topic comment. 

 

To all:  Everybody needs to be on their best behavior for hot button topics.

[cinepro]

Just went on Ebay to see if the Heber C Kimball biography cited at the end of your later post's citation's linkee, and found several copies of the out-of-print biography.  Both first and second editions, if anybody's interested.  Every HCK bio I've ever looked at has some version of the same incident, all appearing to agree in large part on details.

 

For our friend and esteemed self-proclaimed ignorant, I have a question:  For whom were these bios written?  Who read them?  How did people find out about them?  Answer:  Mormons knew about them; they bought them; they told the tales to each other; it was part of the folklore that the very famous and brutally  assassinated Heber C Kimball had passed this very famous Abrahamic Test to prepare him to become the amazing church leader he surely was by any standard.

 

I'm sorry USU, but I really don't think you're making the point that you want to make.  

 

No one is saying that there isn't some subset of LDS that are aware of this story.  Certainly, that subset would include people who buy old Heber Kimball bios off ebay.  It also probably includes many older Church members who grew up in a time when perhaps this story was told more, or when the Church admitted it happened in official Church publications. 

 

I don't know if this qualifies as the Church keeping the story "secret", but if it is "showing up all over the place", it isn't because the Church is sharing it.  Based on the Google search you referenced, it appears to be more commonly shared by anti-mormons and those bitter towards the Church.

 

I would consider any LDS under the age of 40 who is familiar with this story to be the exception rather than the rule.  And the Church wouldn't seem to mind a bit if no LDS ever heard the story again.

 

As for the nature of the situation and its characterization as an "Abrahamic Test", I think that's fine.  I'm not a huge fan of the original Abrahamic test (or the theory behind such tests in general), so it doesn't make the Vilate situation any better to call it such in my eyes.  If that helps people put it in some kind of context that makes an otherwise appalling situation tolerable, then more power to them.

[Questing Beast]

There's a bit of presentism going on there. Church Archives haven't ever, ever been as open or accessible as they are now. And even then, it seems pretty much every other volume of the JSPP utilized First Presidency Vault material previously specifically unavailable to anyone. Book of Commandments and Revelations (BCR, IE, Revelation Book 1). William Clayton Journal. Council of 50 Minutes., etc.

 

It's undeniable the Church's history archives are wonderfully and amazingly open and accessable now (and online searchable!). This hasn't always been the case. One may give arguments whether that was good or bad, but that things are different now is a fact. That information is being presented in official Church publications and settings now that wasn't in the past is also a fact. This isn't an attack, there isn't value or motivation attached, it's simply a fact.

[Senator]

It's even more "all over the place" today than it ever was.  "Vilate Kimball" + polygamy produces "About 2,060 results

(0.47 seconds)" on Google.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a feeling that the church owes a lot to Al Gore!

Edited September 14, 2013 by Senator

[MormonMason]

From what official Church source can I find out about Vilate Kimball being given to Joseph Smith? I did not know her story till 10 minutes ago when you proclaimed that all should know it. When should I have first learned Vilate was given to Joseph Smith at his instruction but when she was brought he wept and told heber and Vilate it was a test.

I don't know about official Church sources but it is mentioned in Heber C. Kimball's biography, by Orson F. Whitney and entitled, The Life of Heber C. Kimball.  Here is a quote from my electronic copy of the biography:

 

Among those to whom Joseph confided this great secret [celestial marriage including the plurality of wives], even before it was committed to writing, was his bosom friend, Heber C. Kimball. Well knowing the integrity of his heart, so many times tested and found true, he felt that he ran no risk in opening to Heber's eyes the treasured mysteries of his mighty soul.  

 

But why careful, among so many friends, to select only a few as the recipients of such a favor? Would not the Saints have died to a man in defense of their Prophet-God's seer and revelator? Alas, none knew so well as Joseph the frailty of man, the inherent weakness and wickedness of the human heart.  

 

"Many men," said he, "will say, 'I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times.' But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens, and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death.  

 

"It was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation."  

 

What! would even the Saints have so done? Did not some of those who were Saints then, so do?  

 

Had not Joseph said many times-are not men now living who heard him say: "Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life."  

 

"If the Church," said he, "knew all the commandments, one-half they would reject through prejudice and ignorance."  

 

No wonder, then, that he should choose his confidants, for their sakes no less than his own. For these also are Joseph's words:  

 

"When God offers a blessing, or knowledge to a man, and he refuses to receive it, he will be damned."  

 

Revelation is ever the iconoclast of tradition, and such is the bigotry of man, his natural hatred of the new and strange, as opposed to his personal interests or private views, that the very lives of those whose mission is to introduce and establish new doctrines, though designed as a blessing to humanity, are ever in danger from those whose traditions would thus be uprooted and destroyed.  

 

Joseph was not a coward. It was he who said that a coward could not be saved in the kingdom of God. But neither was he lacking in caution, especially when warned of the Lord of the necessity for its exercise. Therefore, was he now revealing, to a chosen few, whom God had prepared to receive what he should tell them, one of the grand principles of the everlasting Gospel, "unlawful to be uttered" to the multitude, yet one day to be thundered from the house-tops in the ears of all living, with many other mighty truths locked in the treasure house of future time, of which eternity still holds the key.  

 

Before he would trust even Heber with the full secret, however, he put him to a test which few men would have been able to bear.  

 

It was no less than a requirement for him to surrender his wife, his beloved Vilate, and give her to Joseph in marriage!  

 

The astounding revelation well-nigh paralyzed him. He could hardly believe he had heard aright. Yet Joseph was solemnly in earnest. His next impulse was to spurn the proposition, and perhaps at that terrible moment a vague suspicion of the Prophet's motive and the divinity of the revelation, shot like a poisoned arrow through his soul.  

 

But only for a moment, if at all, was such a thought, such a suspicion entertained. He knew Joseph too well, as a man, a friend, a brother, a servant of God, to doubt his truth or the divine origin of the behest he had made. No, Joseph was God's Prophet, His mouthpiece and oracle, and so long as he was so, his words were as the words of the Eternal One to Heber C. Kimball. His heart-strings might be torn, his feelings crucified and sawn asunder, but so long as his faith in God and the Priesthood remained, heaven helping him, he would try and do as he was told. Such, now, was his superhuman resolve.  

 

Three days he fasted and wept and prayed. Then, with a broken and a bleeding heart, but with soul selfmastered for the sacrifice, he led his darling wife to the Prophet's house and presented her to Joseph.  

 

It was enough-the heavens accepted the sacrifice. The will for the deed was taken, and "accounted unto him for righteousness." Joseph wept at this proof of devotion, and embracing Heber, told him that was all that the Lord required. He had proved him, as a child of Abraham, that he would "do the works of Abraham," holding back nothing, but laying all upon the altar for God's glory.  

 

The Prophet joined the hands of the heroic and devoted pair, and then and there, by virtue of the sealing power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, Heber and Vilate Kimball were made husband and wife for all eternity.  

 

(Orson F. Whitney, The Life of Heber C. Kimball, 322-325; as contained in LDS Library 2006; brackets mine)

 

The text following discussed the next test that was to come to Heber C. Kimball's wife, Vilate, which was to give Helen Mar to Joseph Smith in marriage, but the above is what happened.  And, Heber C. Kimball was not the only one to be tested in this way.  Another unofficial source informing the Saints of multiples of these kinds of tests is an entry the Journal of Discourses, spoken in a Conference.  Here is the requisite quote from Jedediah M. Grant:

 

 

What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? He would say, "Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God." Or if he came and said, "I want your wife?" "O yes," he would say, "here she is, there are plenty more."     

 

There is another main thread connected with this, that I have not brought out. You know in fishing with the hook and line, if you draw out suddenly on the line when you have got a large trout, you may break your line; you must therefore angle a little, and manage your prize carefully. I would ask you if Jehovah has not in all ages tried His people by the power of Lucifer and his associates; and on the other hand, has He not tried them and proved them by His Prophets? Did the Lord actually want Abraham to kill Isaac? Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not, but in that thing was the grand thread of the Priesthood developed. The grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got." A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters.     

 

(Journal of Discourses, 2:14; as contained in LDS Library 2006; bold emphasis mine)