Is Sin Arbitrary Sometimes?

[Duncan]

Read this from Elder Samuelson, formerly of the Seventy,

"In addition we have those I term “vagabond” Saints. These are those who consider themselves to be faithful Church members but attend Church wherever the fancy strikes them on a particular Sunday. Just as the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, so are the young women more beautiful and the young men more handsome in someone else’s ward. We have more than a few with their records in the lost and unknown files. We applaud you clerks for keeping the records clean and current, but we would remind all of you that we are in the people-saving business and must find a way to teach all of our people, including ourselves, the principles of accountability. When we cause the records to be removed from the stewardship of concerned and devoted priesthood leaders, the risk of not retaining these folks is very great. Please make every effort to stay in touch and follow up so that new priesthood leaders will know to look for these more casual members.

At least two of you in attendance have mentioned to me the frustration that occurs when you have felt it necessary to deny a temple recommend to one of these young people only to see them a few weeks later in the temple with a recommend issued from another unit. This ought not to be. We know that you who work with this highly mobile group of young people carry a tremendous load. We also know, and hope you know as well, that we have policies and procedures established for our use that would not make such an unfortunate occurrence possible. Please make the necessary calls and follow the essential procedures to see that we avoid these kinds of errors".

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/Volume%209%20Number%202,%202008/holy-habits-and-righteous-routines

Was talking to a friend on sunday about missions and how in his mission they weren't allowed to do something that in our mission we were allowed to and I personally never though twice about it.

But given these two examples how can one act be bad in one area and then in another area it isn't at all? In the Elder Samuelson example, I don't know if these folks lied to get into the Temple but maybe they told both sets of leaders what they did and both told them different things, as my friend and I were told different things? Why can one leader give one piece of advice or counsel and another say something totally opposite?

I say sometimes because murder isn't up for grabs or criminal activity either or most of it! hopefully anyways!

[ERayR]

But given these two examples how can one act be bad in one area and then in another area it isn't at all? In the Elder Samuelson example, I don't know if these folks lied to get into the Temple but maybe they told both sets of leaders what they did and both told them different things, as my friend and I were told different things? Why can one leader give one piece of advice or counsel and another say something totally opposite?

I say sometimes because murder isn't up for grabs or criminal activity either or most of it! hopefully anyways!

Polygamy would not be a sin when commanded by God but would if it was not authorized.

As for your temple recommend example - Temple recommends are issued or not issued contingent upon how one answers a set of temple recommend questions. The bishops and stake presidents don't get to make up their own questions. I strongly suspect that some are learning the correct answers in one place and giving those answers in another. Elder Samuelson was speaking about young people so Singles wards are probably involved along with family wards.

[halconero]

Obedience and a love of God and Christ are not arbitrary but the guidelines and rules that we are asked to obey are adapted to the circumstances in which the children of God find themselves.

[JDave]

As for your temple recommend example - Temple recommends are issued or not issued contingent upon how one answers a set of temple recommend questions. The bishops and stake presidents don't get to make up their own questions. I strongly suspect that some are learning the correct answers in one place and giving those answers in another. Elder Samuelson was speaking about young people so Singles wards are probably involved along with family wards.

They should totally post the correct answers online.  It would save others the extra running around.

 

I can just imagine it.  "Yes, Yes, No, Yes, Yes...  what?  Slow down?  Did I say something wrong?  Oh, wait I think I had that in the wrong order.  Can we start over?" 

Edited August 16, 2013 by JDave

[Storm Rider]

The actual, individual acts are not sin, but disobedience is sin. The question for me is when there is an issue of priorities. An example I am thinking of during my own mission; I had made a promise to another individual and I held this promise to be giving my word that I would do something.  I later talked to my mission president and he said that I could not do it. I asked three times and he denied my request three times. At the end of my mission I fulfilled my promise, but I also disobeyed my mission president.  For me, keeping my word was far more important than obeying my mission president. I think these kinds of choices present themselves and we need to be careful about when we choose to disobey. I understand that leaders are just men, but the mantle they carry is real.

[Duncan]

The actual, individual acts are not sin, but disobedience is sin. The question for me is when there is an issue of priorities. An example I am thinking of during my own mission; I had made a promise to another individual and I held this promise to be giving my word that I would do something.  I later talked to my mission president and he said that I could not do it. I asked three times and he denied my request three times. At the end of my mission I fulfilled my promise, but I also disobeyed my mission president.  For me, keeping my word was far more important than obeying my mission president. I think these kinds of choices present themselves and we need to be careful about when we choose to disobey. I understand that leaders are just men, but the mantle they carry is real.

 

 

well, my friend had developed some of a complex about the mission difference and I was like why? why was that a even a rule?! so we were like who is speaking for God here and does he actually care about that stuff? it seems like anyone can say well, God says this or that and so people believe whoever they report to. I have other examples of these situations but why all this confusion and disconnects

Edited August 16, 2013 by Duncan

[JDave]

You know how church policy is temporal and temporary, as opposed to doctrine which is supposed to be more eternal?  Well, mission rules are temporal structures built within a temporal structure.  That explains a bit of it.

 

It does seem, though, that the Mission President is given a lot more room for "doing his own thing" in order to do what he feels is best for those under his stewardship.  A lot more than, say, a bishop is given with respect to his congregation.

[Storm Rider]

well, my friend had developed some of a complex about the mission difference and I was like why? why was that a even a rule?! so we were like who is speaking for God here and does he actually care about that stuff? it seems like anyone can say well, God says this or that and so people believe whoever they report to. I have other examples of these situations but why all this confusion and disconnects

Duncan, I think we are responsible for being obedient. I believe that those leaders that use unrighteousness dominion will pay for it. We pay the price of obedience and they may sacrifice their salvation for choosing their own rules rather than God's. A leader should never create a policy without explicit direction from God.

[Calm]

well, my friend had developed some of a complex about the mission difference and I was like why? why was that a even a rule?! so we were like who is speaking for God here and does he actually care about that stuff? it seems like anyone can say well, God says this or that and so people believe whoever they report to. I have other examples of these situations but why all this confusion and disconnects

Different leaders tend to think different ways of teaching are more effective, some think more rules help people grow, others think less rules help, with others it is the type of rule that is important. I think most mission presidents have in mind they are helping the missionaries be better people, they just have different ideas on how this is best accomplished.

[Calm]

. A leader should never create a policy without explicit direction from God.

I disagree. I think the Lord leaves us on our own a lot to figure out what works and what doesn't. As long as one doesn't consider one's experiments to have the same import as commandments and is open to change if it's not working and seeks the Spirit for input if the Lord desires to give some, I don't see it as necessary that one have the Lord micromanaging one's leadership directions. Edited August 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

I disagree. I think the Lord leaves us on our own a lot to figure out what works and what doesn't. As long as one doesn't consider one's experiments to have the same import as commandments and is open to change if it's not working and seeks the Spirit for input if the Lord desires to give some, I don't see it as necessary that one have the Lord micromanaging one's leadership directions.

Cal, I am not sure we disagree. My position is that it is best not to create policies otherwise a leader may become susceptible to his own desires and therefor come under God's condemnation. As a leader within the Church of Jesus Christ we should be careful of instituting rules, particularly those that affect one's eternal salvation, unless we are directed by God. These are not questions of what kind of talk to give, but who can enter the temple or not. This is not micromanaging, but directing the Kingdom. I believe that every time we create new rules we step away from Jesus' gospel and step back toward the Law go Moses. We do not need and should not be commanded in all things.

[ERayR]

well, my friend had developed some of a complex about the mission difference and I was like why? why was that a even a rule?! so we were like who is speaking for God here and does he actually care about that stuff? it seems like anyone can say well, God says this or that and so people believe whoever they report to. I have other examples of these situations but why all this confusion and disconnects

 

 

Mission rules are not about speaking for God.  Mission rules are about keeping a bunch of young men and women safe and out of trouble and keeping their energies directed towards missionary work.

[ERayR]

. A leader should never create a policy without explicit direction from God.

 

A mission president has a group of young people to direct.  He needs to and should create policy for his mission that facilitates his efforts.  Some don't always get it right.

[Storm Rider]

Mission rules are not about speaking for God.  Mission rules are about keeping a bunch of young men and women safe and out of trouble and keeping their energies directed towards missionary work.

Yes, but those MPs sure lord it over each missionary's head about obeying the rules. They do present it in the same context as sin, no?

[ERayR]

Yes, but those MPs sure lord it over each missionary's head about obeying the rules. They do present it in the same context as sin, no?

 

Don't know.  I expect some might but I have no knowledge of such. 

[Duncan]

Yes, but those MPs sure lord it over each missionary's head about obeying the rules. They do present it in the same context as sin, no?

 

okay i'll tell you the story. When I first came out in the mission we were told that every sunday we were to have 140 baptism because the Zls got it from the APs who got it from the MP who got it from the Area Presidency who got  it from Pres. Hinckley and "we all know where he got it from". So, every sunday we tried to get that number and I totally believed that God had prepared 140 people to get baptized that sunday. We only got that number once I think. So when district mtgs came around they were rip sessions to get that number, "we only got 93 yestarday so go home and figure out what you are doing wrong", you're "failing God"  in essence and so two months later the MP finished his mission and went home. The new Mission President came in and did away with that. So it wasn't until after my mission I really got to thinking about this number. Like, what if we baptized 40 this week wouldn't that mean that 100 could be ready for baptism next week and so the number is 240? what if we baptized 141 this weekend and so next weekend we only need to get 139 or what about if people move, lose interest in baptism that we don't even know about them yet, or die what then, why is the number always the same? I now think differently about all that stuff that if I had the guts to say it back then I'd be labeled as a rebel or something!

Edited August 16, 2013 by Duncan

[ERayR]

okay i'll tell you the story. When I first came out in the mission we were told that every sunday we were to have 140 baptism because the Zls got it from the APs who got it from the MP who got it from the Area Presidency who got  it from Pres. Hinckley and "we all know where he got it from". So, every sunday we tried to get that number and I totally believed that God had prepared 140 people to get baptized that sunday. We only got that number once I think. So when district mtgs came around they were rip sessions to get that number, "we only got 93 yestarday so go home and figure out what you are doing wrong", you're "failing God"  in essence and so two months later the MP finished his mission and went home. The new Mission President came in and did away with that. So it wasn't until after my mission I really got to thinking about this number. Like, what if we baptized 40 this week wouldn't that mean that 100 could be ready for baptism next week and so the number is 240? what if we baptized 141 this weekend and so next weekend we only need to get 139 or what about if people move, lose interest in baptism that we don't even know about them yet, or die what then, why is the number always the same? I now think differently about all that stuff that if I had the guts to say it back then I'd be labeled as a rebel or something!

 

Sounds like a sales meeting for a tech firm or multi-level marketing firm.  Never was much for those techniques.

[LordUther]

okay i'll tell you the story. When I first came out in the mission we were told that every sunday we were to have 140 baptism because the Zls got it from the APs who got it from the MP who got it from the Area Presidency who got  it from Pres. Hinckley and "we all know where he got it from". So, every sunday we tried to get that number and I totally believed that God had prepared 140 people to get baptized that sunday. We only got that number once I think. So when district mtgs came around they were rip sessions to get that number, "we only got 93 yestarday so go home and figure out what you are doing wrong", you're "failing God"  in essence and so two months later the MP finished his mission and went home. The new Mission President came in and did away with that. So it wasn't until after my mission I really got to thinking about this number. Like, what if we baptized 40 this week wouldn't that mean that 100 could be ready for baptism next week and so the number is 240? what if we baptized 141 this weekend and so next weekend we only need to get 139 or what about if people move, lose interest in baptism that we don't even know about them yet, or die what then, why is the number always the same? I now think differently about all that stuff that if I had the guts to say it back then I'd be labeled as a rebel or something!

140 baptisms every Sunday? I hope that was for the mission & not the companionship! 

[Duncan]

Sounds like a sales meeting for a tech firm or multi-level marketing firm.  Never was much for those techniques.

 

 

see! and you get this complex about failing God and all this stuff and then the next President comes and it's like it never happpened, so then you think I felt guilty and worthless for nothing

[Duncan]

140 baptisms every Sunday? I hope that was for the mission & not the companionship! 

 

every sunday!

[foster]

well, my friend had developed some of a complex about the mission difference and I was like why? why was that a even a rule?! so we were like who is speaking for God here and does he actually care about that stuff? it seems like anyone can say well, God says this or that and so people believe whoever they report to. I have other examples of these situations but why all this confusion and disconnects

In my opinion you are confusing two separate topics. Sin, I would say is defined by God. Man makes up his own rules which are very often arbitrary. So yes, yours and my mission rules were aribtrary. Do havemore specific examples of something God mandates as being arbitrary?

[Duncan]

In my opinion you are confusing two separate topics. Sin, I would say is defined by God. Man makes up his own rules which are very often arbitrary. So yes, yours and my mission rules were aribtrary. Do havemore specific examples of something God mandates as being arbitrary?

 

well, I don't know sometimes as what sin is is determined by what leader you have as I say one says one thing and another says something totally different

[ERayR]

well, I don't know sometimes as what sin is is determined by what leader you have as I say one says one thing and another says something totally different

 

I have to disagree.  Sin is a religious term and is defined by God.  Some leaders try to define it with their own definition but that doesn't change the nature of sin.  It is breaking God's law.

[foster]

I have to disagree.  Sin is a religious term and is defined by God.  Some leaders try to define it with their own definition but that doesn't change the nature of sin.  It is breaking God's law.

rightly stated, sin is a religious term. I now of instances where "punishment" for sin was drastically different, even though the actors in each situation committed the same act. So is sin arbitrary, I think not; man's reaction to sin is arbitrary at times.

[Duncan]

I have to disagree.  Sin is a religious term and is defined by God.  Some leaders try to define it with their own definition but that doesn't change the nature of sin.  It is breaking God's law.

 

 

I hear what you are saying and I love your guts and all but I don't want to get to the other side and then God says to me well, you know what Bishop J. Horton Hickenlooper told you in 2002 was actually wrong so get out of my sight! how are we to determine what is actually wrong and right and not these interpretations of local leaderships? You may feel the spirit or not and still get a recommend and people can do things that they think are right or wrong despite what their Bishop thinks that somewhere down the line another leader says don't worry about that!