Double Standard In Camping Policy?

[kassie]

I have seen this happen and unfortunately several did have eternal consequences. The thing the kids learn is that Church rules are unimportant and can be disregarded and so that is what they do.

Well I have thought that the "no camping on Sundays" rule was a bit backward as long as a sacrament meeting could be held on Sunday for the scouts and a day of rest and scripture reading activities. I now see that it appears to be a "ward by ward" or "stake by stake" decision. That makes more sense.

However, your post brought up an interesting thought. Do we teach our kids to "cherry pick" church rules and doctrine by letting them watch us how to figure out how to get around some of the rules?

[canard78]

I have seen this happen and unfortunately several did have eternal consequences. The thing the kids learn is that Church rules are unimportant and can be disregarded and so that is what they do.

Yes! Follow the rules. The rules are the only thing that matters. There is no room for parents or local leadership to do anything other than follow the dogmatic rules. Otherwise they are bad and must be uninspired. Release them! Crush them withe rule book!

Or...

“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them even if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves" (Millennial Star, Volume 14, No. 38, Pages 593-595).

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MStar/id/37806

Do you allow no room for local leadership inspiration outside of the rulebook? The Handbooks are not the commandments.

[bluebell]

Yes! Follow the rules. The rules are the only thing that matters. There is no room for parents or local leadership to do anything other than follow the dogmatic rules. Otherwise they are bad and must be uninspired. Release them! Crush them withe rule book!

Or...

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/MStar/id/37806

Do you allow no room for local leadership inspiration outside of the rulebook? The Handbooks are not the commandments.

I think it's one of those fine line kind of things.

I think everyone agrees that sometimes you have to follow the spirit of the law and not the letter, but at the same time, in a large organization, following the rules that have been set forth are important. They are often set up to protect the organization, as well as the individual member, from legal trouble and heartache.

I'm the RS president in my ward and sometimes have to help the sisters to keep rules that they don't see a reason for. But usually that's because they have not stopped to really think about the reasons for the rules. For example, we sometimes have RS enrichment meetings during a weekday, when the sisters often have little ones that they need to bring with them. The rules for having a nursery during RS meetings are very clear in the handbook, but we had an occasion where the sisters in charge decided they were inconvenient to follow (they weren't being rebellious or anything, they just really felt like they were in a bind and that the only solution was to have one of the sisters husbands man the nursery by himself, and none of the mothers had a problem with it).

When I found out about it later, I reminded the sister that we can't allow men to be in the nursery alone, to which she replied that her husband was no threat and everyone knew it (this conversation was not at all heated and there was no animosity between us). I then asked her what would happen if one of the children accused him of doing something improper? She just sat in front of me speechless for a few seconds and then replied that she had never thought of that.

We then discussed how if such an accusation was made, she had put her husband in the position that he would not be able to clear his name. And she then got a little green around the gills realizing how devastating that kind of an accusation would be both legally and emotionally to her husband and her family. At the end of the discussion, she agreed that she wouldn't allow anyone to be put in that kind of a position again because the risk to reward ratio was not worth it.

Most (not all) rules in the church that involve children and youth are there to protect the youth and the leaders. Leaders need to realize that the consequences don't have to be huge for them to still be devastating. If a scout get's hurt on an activity that is not approved by the church, the church's insurance won't cover it, and if the parents don't have the money to do so, suddenly the leader has put the family in a position that they never should have been in, and has also opened himself up to be sued, with no church backing in helping him navigate the legal waters.

In most instances, it's really not worth ignoring the rules.

Now, having said that, does that mean there's never a reason to ignore a rule or bend it? Probably not. But before we get too judgmental about people who believe it's important to keep rules that have symbolically already been agreed upon when the 'job' was taken, we can think of how we feel about our own children when they decide that they know better than us and break rules that we have set for them.

While theoretically we want our kids to think for themselves and to use the spirit when deciding on keeping or breaking a rule we have set (and we know we aren't perfect and will sometimes set dumb rules), practically, we know that they don't often understand the reasons behind our rules enough to make a good choice on their own, and we also know that as long as we are doing our best to be good parents, the Spirit is not going to be telling them to ignore our rules except under extreme or very special circumstances. That would undermine our authority as their parents and unless our rules are harming them in someway or thwarting the will of God, most likely the Spirit is going to stay out of it, even if the rule isn't necessarily important.

I think we can look at the rules in church, and our reaction to them, in a similar way. It's probably likely that we don't have enough information to really know that we can safely break most rules and have it not matter. And, it's also probably likely that the Spirit is not going to tell us break the rules most of the time, because He's not there to make sure we always get our way or to undermine the authority of leaders, even when doing it our way isn't really a bad thing.

So, while the rules definitely aren't the only things that matter, neither are they unimportant.

Edited August 5, 2013 by bluebell

[ERayR]

I think it's one of those fine line kind of things.

I think everyone agrees that sometimes you have to follow the spirit of the law and not the letter, but at the same time, in a large organization, following the rules that have been set forth are important. They are often set up to protect the organization, as well as the individual member, from legal trouble and heartache.

I'm the RS president in my ward and sometimes have to help the sisters to keep rules that they don't see a reason for. But usually that's because they have not stopped to really think about the reasons for the rules. For example, we sometimes have RS enrichment meetings during a weekday, when the sisters often have little ones that they need to bring with them. The rules for having a nursery during RS meetings are very clear in the handbook, but we had an occasion where the sisters in charge decided they were inconvenient to follow (they weren't being rebellious or anything, they just really felt like they were in a bind and that the only solution was to have one of the sisters husbands man the nursery by himself, and none of the mothers had a problem with it).

When I found out about it later, I reminded the sister that we can't allow men to be in the nursery alone, to which she replied that her husband was no threat and everyone knew it (this conversation was not at all heated and there was no animosity between us). I then asked her what would happen if one of the children accused him of doing something improper? She just sat in front of me speechless for a few seconds and then replied that she had never thought of that.

We then discussed how if such an accusation was made, she had put her husband in the position that he would not be able to clear his name. And she then got a little green around the gills realizing how devastating that kind of an accusation would be both legally and emotionally to her husband and her family. At the end of the discussion, she agreed that she wouldn't allow anyone to be put in that kind of a position again because the risk to reward ratio was not worth it.

Most (not all) rules in the church that involve children and youth are there to protect the youth and the leaders. Leaders need to realize that the consequences don't have to be huge for them to still be devastating. If a scout get's hurt on an activity that is not approved by the church, the church's insurance won't cover it, and if the parents don't have the money to do so, suddenly the leader has put the family in a position that they never should have been in, and has also opened himself up to be sued, with no church backing in helping him navigate the legal waters.

In most instances, it's really not worth ignoring the rules.

Now, having said that, does that mean there's never a reason to ignore a rule or bend it? Probably not. But before we get too judgmental about people who believe it's important to keep rules that have symbolically already been agreed upon when the 'job' was taken, we can think of how we feel about our own children when they decide that they know better than us and break rules that we have set for them.

While theoretically we want our kids to think for themselves and to use the spirit when deciding on keeping or breaking a rule we have set (and we know we aren't perfect and will sometimes set dumb rules), practically, we know that they don't often understand the reasons behind our rules enough to make a good choice on their own, and we also know that as long as we are doing our best to be good parents, the Spirit is not going to be telling them to ignore our rules except under extreme or very special circumstances. That would undermine our authority as their parents and unless our rules are harming them in someway or thwarting the will of God, most likely the Spirit is going to stay out of it, even if the rule isn't necessarily important.

I think we can look at the rules in church, and our reaction to them, in a similar way. It's probably likely that we don't have enough information to really know that we can safely break most rules and have it not matter. And, it's also probably likely that the Spirit is not going to tell us break the rules most of the time, because He's not there to make sure we always get our way or to undermine the authority of leaders, even when doing it our way isn't really a bad thing.

So, while the rules definitely aren't the only things that matter, neither are they unimportant.

About a dozen more rep points for this one.

Irregardless of Canard78"s knee jerk reaction the rules are there for a very good reason. It is not a matter of following rules just because they are rules, its about following the rules for protection. But then what the . . . who needs rules and laws, like Canard says everybody just do what makes them feel good.

[ERayR]

Yes! Follow the rules. The rules are the only thing that matters. There is no room for parents or local leadership to do anything other than follow the dogmatic rules. Otherwise they are bad and must be uninspired. Release them! Crush them withe rule book!

Nope just let them go. There is no rule that should crush their spirit of experimentation. All is ok drugs, sex . . . whatever, rules are unimportant.

[Storm Rider]

It is interesting how some critics only take the extreme position for the basis of their entire position. When this happens I automatically turn off my brain because I know I am not dealing with a discussion of any merit or integrity. Of course, I acknowledge the words of Thomas Carlyle, "Sarcasm I now see to be, in general, the language of the devil, for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it." I freely admit that I personally have not renounced sarcasm, but I have seen that sarcasm does not do well in print.

[Calm]

It is interesting how some critics...

I hope you mean critics in general (where someone criticizes a particular position...which means all of us since we are all critical of something) and are not applying the term in this context as someone who is critical of the Church....just checking to make sure I understand you correctly. Edited August 6, 2013 by calmoriah