Proof!

[changed]

Often, we hear the sentiment that we should not prove things, but instead rely on faith - but is this scripturally based? There are quite a few scriptures that use the word "prove" and make it sound like we are supposed to "prove the Lord" and that He is going to "prove us" - that in the process of proving one another, we will come to know who we are, and who God is.

Example scriptures:

Old Testament | Malachi 3:10)

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If you pay your tithes - and you are blessed - is that proof of God and his nature? are there any stats anywhere that document the economic well-being of faithful temple-going tithe-paying LDS members, and compare that to the average economic well-being of the general population? and if there were such stats, could these be used as "proof" that tithing works?

Acts 9:22

22 But Saul (Paul) increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Sounds like Paul was able to "prove" who Jesus was - sounds like there were some heated debates, which Paul won, that he was able to clearly provide "proof" to everyone.

Romans 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

In an age where what is good and what is evil is debated - is it really possible to "prove" without a shadow of a doubt that something is good? It appears we are supposed to be able to prove certain things.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

not "have faith in all things" or "believe in all things", but prove all things.

Just look at all these scriptures using the word "prove"

Topical Guide | P Prove:Entry

Prove (see also Examine; Temptation; Try; Test, Try, Prove)

Gen. 42:15 ye shall be p.

Ex. 16:4 p. them, whether they will walk in my law

Ex. 20:20 God is come to p. you

Deut. 8:2 God led thee ... in the wilderness ... to p. thee

Deut. 8:16 that he might p. thee, to do thee good

Deut. 13:3 God p. you, to know whether ye love the Lord

Judg. 2:22 through them I may p. Israel

1 Sam. 17:39 David ... had not p. it

1 Kgs. 10:1 (2 Chr. 9:1) queen of Sheba ... came to p. him

Ps. 26:2 Examine me, O Lord, and p. me

Ps. 81:7 I p. thee at the waters of Meribah

Ps. 95:9 (Heb. 3:9) your fathers tempted me, p. me

Mal. 3:10 (3 Ne. 24:10) p. me ... if I will not open you the windows of heaven

John 6:6 this he said to p. him

Acts 9:22 p. that this is very Christ

Acts 24:13 Neither can they p. the things whereof they now accuse me

Rom. 3:9 we have before p. both Jews and Gentiles

Rom. 12:2 p. what is that good

2 Cor. 8:8 I speak ... to p. the sincerity of your love

2 Cor. 13:5 in the faith: p. your own selves

Gal. 6:4 let every man p. his own work

1 Thes. 5:21 P. all things

Heb. 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, p. me

2 Ne. 11:3 to p. unto them that my words are true

Alma 1:12 (3: priestcraft ... would p. their entire destruction

Alma 34:7 appealed unto Moses, to p. that these things are true

Hel. 2:13 Gadianton did p. the overthrow ... of the people of Nephi

3 Ne. 1:24 endeavoring to p. by the scriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses

Ether 12:35 Gentiles have not charity ... that thou wilt p. them

Moro. 8:27 pride ... of the Nephites, hath p. their destruction

D&C 20:11 P. to the world that the holy scriptures are true

D&C 35:23 call on the holy prophets to p. his words

D&C 57:13 shall be p. by the Spirit through him

D&C 68:21 claim their anointing if at any time they can p. their lineage

D&C 84:79 I send you out to p. the world

D&C 98:14 I will p. you in all things

D&C 121:12 that he may p. them also

D&C 124:55 that you may p. yourselves unto me

D&C 132:51 I did it, saith the Lord, to p. you all, as I did Abraham

Abr. 3:25 we will p. them herewith.

So, where is the proof? what constitutes proof? what good proofs have you seen?

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

[Calm]

we hear the sentiment that we should not prove things, but instead rely on faith

I am uncertain that I am reading this in the same way you mean it, so can you provide me with an example that demonstrates what you mean please.

[changed]

I am uncertain that I am reading this in the same way you mean it, so can you provide me with an example that demonstrates what you mean please.

You know, people say you can't prove God exists, or you can't prove your church is right, that we are not supposed to seek signs (DC 63: but instead have faith - blessed are those who do not see and yet believe etc. etc. So, where is the line of what you are supposed to just have faith in, vs. what you are supposed to prove? It seems like there is something almost rude and against faith to demand proof from God - and yet so many scriptures talk about proving it.

[ERayR]

Often, we hear the sentiment that we should not prove things, but instead rely on faith - but is this scripturally based? There are quite a few scriptures that use the word "prove" and make it sound like we are supposed to "prove the Lord" and that He is going to "prove us" - that in the process of proving one another, we will come to know who we are, and who God is.

Example scriptures:

Old Testament | Malachi 3:10)

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If you pay your tithes - and you are blessed - is that proof of God and his nature? are there any stats anywhere that document the economic well-being of faithful temple-going tithe-paying LDS members, and compare that to the average economic well-being of the general population? and if there were such stats, could these be used as "proof" that tithing works?

Acts 9:22

22 But Saul (Paul) increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Sounds like Paul was able to "prove" who Jesus was - sounds like there were some heated debates, which Paul won, that he was able to clearly provide "proof" to everyone.

Romans 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

In an age where what is good and what is evil is debated - is it really possible to "prove" without a shadow of a doubt that something is good? It appears we are supposed to be able to prove certain things.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

not "have faith in all things" or "believe in all things", but prove all things.

Just look at all these scriptures using the word "prove"

So, where is the proof? what constitutes proof? what good proofs have you seen?

The proof for these things is not in empirical proofs but in the form of personal revelation. If you are looking to have all things proven empirically then you are going to be disappointed.

[mfbukowski]

So, where is the proof? what constitutes proof? what good proofs have you seen?

All these are right.

The proof is in the pudding- or in your heart. The good news AND the bad is that it is nowhere else.

[ERayR]

You know, people say you can't prove God exists, or you can't prove your church is right, that we are not supposed to seek signs (DC 63: but instead have faith - blessed are those who do not see and yet believe etc. etc. So, where is the line of what you are supposed to just have faith in, vs. what you are supposed to prove? It seems like there is something almost rude and against faith to demand proof from God - and yet so many scriptures talk about proving it.

See my post above. The line is within you.

[changed]

If you are looking to have all things proven empirically then you are going to be disappointed.

I disagree - I think there are real, tangible blessings that come from keeping comandments - weather it be blessings of health through the WoW, or blessings of not being in debt and having needs taken care of through paying tithing. The gosple need not be kept in the realm of thoughts/poetry/philosphy - it consists of real things, real covenants, with real blessings associated with them.

See my post above. The line is within you.

Yea, but Paul was able to "prove" Christ to the Jewish people through what sounds like debate... should we follow Paul's example and debate with others - seek proof that others can see?

All these are right.

The proof is in the pudding- or in your heart. The good news AND the bad is that it is nowhere else.

it is nowhere else? what happened to letting your light shine and all that?

Edited July 11, 2013 by changed

[Calm]

Paul was able to "prove" Christ to the Jewish people through what sounds like debate...

How many were actually converted in their hearts to Christ through his debate?

[Calm]

I think there are real, tangible blessings that come from keeping comandments - weather it be blessings of health through the WoW, or blessings of not being in debt and having needs taken care of through paying tithing

I would agree, they just don't come with a notarized certificate saying "provided by God". There are very few cases where an outsider, not knowing of your internal experience, couldn't say "the cause of this was actually something besides God" because to a great extent, God works though the mundane processes of life and miracles are seldom obvious to those not directly involved in them.

it is nowhere else? what happened to letting your light shine and all that?

Not getting the connection. What does knowing the miracles and witnesses of the Lord in one's heart and mind have to do with not "letting your light shine"? Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[changed]

How many were actually converted in their hearts to Christ through his debate?

If I remember right, there were a few who were converted - generally it's not the ones participating in the actual debate, but instead those on the sidelines.

I tend to have a very agressive personality and love to debate people - I know this is not always the best approach, and I usually will not do this unless there are bystanders - that the point of debate is to show the other side of the coin to bystanders. ...

Samuel the Lamanite - we celebrate him standing up there on the wall getting everyone riled up, right? or Gideon - killed by Nehor because he won the debate with words - there are a ton of people in the scriptures who go around debating others... at least it seems that way to me.

[Freedom]

This shows how fickle language can be. When we talk of proof today, we talk of empirical proof. This is not the definition required in the scriptures. We proof our devotion not through scientific data but through the principles and ordinances of the gospel. Otherwise only people with PHD's would make it into heaven. Yikes.

[changed]

I would agree, they just don't come with a notarized certificate saying "provided by God".

I think they come with the expectation that we will open our mouths and give the glory to God - consider the 10 lepers, only 1 came back and acknowledged where their blessings had come from, and the lesson in that? Perhaps that we are all supposed to try and convince everyone that all of our blessings really do come from God.

[changed]

...empirical proof. .

But we can take data - we can test it out, we can use the scientific meathod on it.

Hypothesis: If I follow the comandments I will be blessed.

Test: Follow the commandments.

Observations / results: Is life better?

Verify results - talk to others who have done the same test, etc. etc.

I think we really need to get away from propogating the notion that religion is somehow not scientific - you can test it out just like you can test anything.

[Calm]

I think they come with the expectation that we will open our mouths and give the glory to God - consider the 10 lepers, only 1 came back and acknowledged where their blessings had come from, and the lesson in that? Perhaps that we are all supposed to try and convince everyone that all of our blessings really do come from God.

We can only testify, we cannot be guaranteed to convince anyone. That is the role of the individual and the Spirit. To do otherwise would be to force others and thus it would be a loss of agency.

Laman and Lemuel saw an angel, look how well that turned out for them.

What about those Nephites who experienced the miracle of the day and the night and the day without darkness? How long were they converted?

What did the Israelites end up doing shortly after having the proof of God's power after they walked dry through the Red Sea?

Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I think we really need to get away from propogating the notion that religion is somehow not scientific - you can test it out just like you can test anything.

And you can "prove" to yourself because you've set up the parameters of your experiment and know in your heart when those parameters have been met, but what of those who can't see in your heart?

You can point all you want to how your life is better because you are living the gospel due to God's intervention in your life; problem is that others can come up with just as verifiable reasons for the improvement such as the benefit of having a social support structure, the benefits of not smoking or drinking or using recreational drugs, etc. How do you prove that the latter isn't the reason for your better life? Or even that it isn't just the placebo effect?

[ERayR]

But we can take data - we can test it out, we can use the scientific meathod on it.

Hypothesis: If I follow the comandments I will be blessed.

Test: Follow the commandments.

Observations / results: Is life better?

Verify results - talk to others who have done the same test, etc. etc.

I think we really need to get away from propogating the notion that religion is somehow not scientific - you can test it out just like you can test anything.

What happens if life doesn't get better? If your back still hurts constantly, if you still are unable to provide the necessities? If all this happens and you still have had that personal revelation from the spirit so you still believe? Where is your empirical evidence?

[changed]

What happens if life doesn't get better?

Perhaps "life getting better" was the wrong way to put it - "you become a better person", with more self-control, deeper understanding, more refined - depending on how you define "life is better", I think life does get better.

[Calm]

Perhaps "life getting better" was the wrong way to put it - "you become a better person", with more self-control, deeper understanding, more refined - depending on how you define "life is better", I think life does get better.

And how would anyone else know that "you've become a better person" since so much of that is an internal experience and could be explained away many times by attributing selfish motivations? Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Freedom]

But we can take data - we can test it out, we can use the scientific meathod on it.

Hypothesis: If I follow the comandments I will be blessed.

Test: Follow the commandments.

Observations / results: Is life better?

Verify results - talk to others who have done the same test, etc. etc.

I think we really need to get away from propogating the notion that religion is somehow not scientific - you can test it out just like you can test anything.

You have to be able to duplicate it with anyone. This cannot be done. You can have two people in the same room experiencing the same lesson and one will receive a spiritual witness and the other will not. Empirical means measurable, not based on a persons testimony. You cannot scientifically measure a testimony in a lab. You cannot take two people and draw blood samples to determine which one believes the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. The witness of the spirit, with our current technology, is not measurable through scientific means.

[Brian 2.0]

I disagree - I think there are real, tangible blessings that come from keeping comandments - weather it be blessings of health through the WoW, or blessings of not being in debt and having needs taken care of through paying tithing. The gosple need not be kept in the realm of thoughts/poetry/philosphy - it consists of real things, real covenants, with real blessings associated with them.

I think this type of thinking with tangible blessings coming from keeping the commandments as proof can get one into trouble. Not everyone that pays their tithing miraculously gets a job or receives a check in the mail. Full tithe paying members can fall into financial ruin just as easily as non-tithe paying members.

Also... if one is relying on scientific proofs judging the value of keeping the WoW, then you will see some "proof" in things like abstaining from tobacco, but then what do you do with studies showing the benefits of a glass of red wine once a day? In the end, those keeping the WoW are not doing because of its scientific proofs, but because they think it's instructed by God... for whatever reason He may have for it.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[JDave]

All these are right.

The proof is in the pudding- or in your heart. The good news AND the bad is that it is nowhere else.

I agree. There is proof, and it is repeatable, but it is not meant to be conveyed person to person. It is Spirit to spirit. Regardless of how physical the 'proof' is, it only becomes spiritual truth/proof in as much as it is conveyed to our spirit. It is always an individual process -- God works one on one.

[Robert F. Smith]

Often, we hear the sentiment that we should not prove things, but instead rely on faith - but is this scripturally based? There are quite a few scriptures that use the word "prove" and make it sound like we are supposed to "prove the Lord" and that He is going to "prove us" - that in the process of proving one another, we will come to know who we are, and who God is.

Example scriptures:

Old Testament | Malachi 3:10)

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If you pay your tithes - and you are blessed - is that proof of God and his nature? are there any stats anywhere that document the economic well-being of faithful temple-going tithe-paying LDS members, and compare that to the average economic well-being of the general population? and if there were such stats, could these be used as "proof" that tithing works?

Acts 9:22

22 But Saul (Paul) increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Sounds like Paul was able to "prove" who Jesus was - sounds like there were some heated debates, which Paul won, that he was able to clearly provide "proof" to everyone.

Romans 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

In an age where what is good and what is evil is debated - is it really possible to "prove" without a shadow of a doubt that something is good? It appears we are supposed to be able to prove certain things.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

not "have faith in all things" or "believe in all things", but prove all things.

Just look at all these scriptures using the word "prove"

So, where is the proof? what constitutes proof? what good proofs have you seen?

Your last question is the broadest and constitutes a serious subject all by itself. First, however, it is necessary to say what all these scriptural references actually mean:

Of the citations you provide, only Acts 9:22 applies a Greek word (sumbibadzo "advise, instruct, inform; prove, offer proof") suggesting the sort of forensic or intellectual proof offered in debate or a courtroom. QED. The only other KJ NT translation of "prove, proved," which can have juridical application is at Romans 3:9 (proaitiaomai "prove a charge or accusation").

Rom 12:2, I Thess 5:21, on the other hand, use the most common such Greek word (dokimadzo) translated by the KJ NT as "prove, proved" (so also at Lk 14:9), which means "test, tested," as for a number of words in the KJ OT translated "prove, proved":

For example, the KJV frequently translates Hebrew nasa as "prove, proved," where "test, tested" is the real meaning, as at Ex 16:4, 20:20, Ps 26:2 (where it is used in parallel with "examine"), and the same word elsewhere means "try, tried" (II Chron 32:31.

At Malachi 3:10, however, the Hebrew is bahan (so also Gen 42:15-16), which again means "test."

Such biblical passages might best be understood in light of Alma 32, which covers the issue in detail and is even suggestive of the experimental method used in the sciences.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[changed]

You have to be able to duplicate it with anyone. This cannot be done. You can have two people in the same room experiencing the same lesson and one will receive a spiritual witness and the other will not. Empirical means measurable, not based on a persons testimony. You cannot scientifically measure a testimony in a lab. You cannot take two people and draw blood samples to determine which one believes the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. The witness of the spirit, with our current technology, is not measurable through scientific means.

I think anyone could gain a testimony - not in the same room, or at the same time, but anyone could gain a testimony, so I think that yes, you can duplicate it with anyone.

[changed]

I think this type of thinking with tangible blessings coming from keeping the commandments as proof can get one into trouble. Not everyone that pays their tithing miraculously gets a job or receives a check in the mail. Full tithe paying members can fall into financial ruin just as easily as non-tithe paying members.

there would usually be another circumstance though - perhaps they were paying tithing, but they had not followed other commandments, such as keeping a 3 month supply - adhering to basic preparedness principles (like getting health insurance), or avoiding risky gambling investments, etc. etc.... and I'm not saying tithing should be marketed as some kind of a get-rich-quick scheme, the point of it is to have the peace of mind that living debt free brings, that things come together so that you have what you need.

I guess it should be noted that, as with all tests, there are very specific guidelines to make it work. ... like testing the boiling point of water - you only get repeatable results if the pressure is constant, the water pure, the thermometer in working order, etc. etc. - that is a simple test, but all tests there are an infinite number of ways to get it wrong in which case the problem is not with the concept, but in setting up the test conditions correctly.... any good scientist knows the importance of setting up a good test.

Also... if one is relying on scientific proofs judging the value of keeping the WoW, then you will see some "proof" in things like abstaining from tobacco, but then what do you do with studies showing the benefits of a glass of red wine once a day? In the end, those keeping the WoW are not doing because of its scientific proofs, but because they think it's instructed by God... for whatever reason He may have for it.

you do know that it is not the alchohol in the wine that is good for you, but the red grape juice? If you want to be healthy, drink a glass of red grape juice every day .

Dietary laws are a much debated subject - every day there are new cure-all diets, and yet people keep trying them, refining them, testing them - even though you can argue one way or another about all of them... religious beliefs could be handled in a similar way - every day we refine what we understand, and what the best ways of living and being are.

[Calm]

I think anyone could gain a testimony - not in the same room, or at the same time, but anyone could gain a testimony, so I think that yes, you can duplicate it with anyone.

I would say the scriptures that state that people have different gifts of the Spirit demonstrate that people develop testimonies based on different things. Therefore if one takes two people and presents them with the same evidence and experience of the gospel, there is still no guarantee that they will both receive a testimony.