A War Against The Church Based On Marriage, Or Is This Just Sarcasm I Missed?

[Bikeemikey]

This is not a political question. I am just shocked at the suggestion from a closed thread. I would like to know if the original comments were intended seriously, and if so if this is a belief that is widely held by those on this board.

Comments from a now closed thread:

Posted by USU78:

Posted Today, 12:37 PM

Buckeye, on 26 June 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I'm very happy right now. My friend and co-worker has been married to her wife under DC law for several years. They are raising a great boy together. We've had them over to our home for dinner. I was so proud of my wife and children as they opened their hearts to befriend this good family. I'm ecstatic that now our federal government recognizes their family as much as my own. It's a great day for all families.

No it's not. It's one day closer to a shooting war against the LDS Church, its members and leaders.

Posted by Mola Suda Ram

Posted Today, 12:42 PM

USU78, on 26 June 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

No it's not. It's one day closer to a shooting war against the LDS Church, its members and leaders.

Mmmmmmmmmm correct. And any one that doesn't think that that day is soon is hand is blind.

Edited by Mola Ram Suda Ram, Today, 12:42 PM.

Posted by ERayR

Posted Today, 01:06 PM

Bikeemikey, on 26 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

You American Mormons are all so apocalyptic... There are countries around the world where this issue is done and dusted. Many countries do not even currently recognized the temple sealing as a marriage so members who get married in the temple must have an additional marriage ceremony.

As for a shooting war... if it is a shooting war it will not be at the Church... it will be between Americans. The Church is a global institution that now has more members outside the US than it does inside. I guess if we had to we could relocate the Church headquarters to Canada or New Zealand or something.

Church leaders will be prime targets. They are in the US.

Posted By Bikeemikey

Posted Today, 01:14 PM

ERayR, on 26 June 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Church leaders will be prime targets. They are in the US.

You are right.

Real church leaders will be come real targets of a fictional American on American apocalyptic gun fight over marriage.

As long as the our leaders remain real targets of a fictional event I am fine with that.

Your vision is a bit restricted. Broaden your perception.

My Response:

Please show me where there is a imminent threat of massive apocalyptic warfare against the Church or Church leaders (either in the USA or another country) based our stance on marriage!

In the mean time I have no issues with where my perception is.

It think it is prudent for members of the church in the USA to realize this is not a battle with the LDS church globally (in fact many members outside of the USA were horrified by the church involvement in Prop 8 and the general marriage debate) but is a political battle of Americans vs Americans. Most countries where the church is active have already moved past this issue.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe there will be a war in the Shoot'em Up Bang Bang sense of the word. But there was/is/will be a war of words.

[Questing Beast]

My father-in-law, a TBM's TBM, is positively certain that the "last days" are upon us, which will ultimately include wars everywhere, and the LDS people will prevail because God is with us. This is all very apocalyptic thinking and founded solidly on scripture and its exegesis since the beginning of the LDS faith. That means that yes, "political" divisions such as SSM will eventually form a line in the sand we as a people cannot allow "gentiles" to cross in compelling us to adopt the "laws of the land", which if unconstitutional, we cannot in good conscience adopt into our religion. That's when the open fight would start. But, we are also told in prophetic terms that God will fight our battles for us. We won't have a lick-spittle's chance of winning a physical war, so we won't take up arms, but will be as the Nephites when told to flee or not fight, and God delivers....

[USU78]

There is, down in our neutrinos, a feeling amongst those of us whose Mormon ancestry goes back to prior to 1869, that the Utah War has never ended and never will end. There are no longer any field guns on the bluff overlooking Temple Square, but there are field guns on the fluff overlooking Point of the Mountain. There is, moreover, evidence that the US' anti-Mormon policies of the XIXth Century both motivated the sequester of >60% of all lands inside Utah (as well as essentially all mineral rights under all lands) as US lands, and continues to be such that Utah, and, therefore, Mormons, should always struggle economically . . . all in order to avert a perceived Antebellum threat of a Mormon Theocracy in the West that would be a dagger in the back of the US.

The only issue has ever been "what will be the trigger event that will cause a rehashing of XIXth Century Official AntiMormonism." I believe that homosexual marriage is that issue. To enforce in the name of an allegedly oppressed minority a suppression of the dastardly practice of man/woman-only marriages at the point of the gun on pain of disincorporation and attainder or worse is where this is all leading. I am not alone in my fears. But if called upon, I will put both body and soul at risk in defense of the Temples and our G-d (not government) granted rights of free exercise.

You may argue against this fear, but tell me, honestly: when has SCOTUS ever upheld free exercise against a claimed liberty right? The correct answer is: "Never."

[Bikeemikey]

I don't believe there will be a war in the Shoot'em Up Bang Bang sense of the word. But there was/is/will be a war of words.

Sure - always has been, always will be. That is also a good thing, in my opinion.

[Bikeemikey]

My father-in-law, a TBM's TBM, is positively certain that the "last days" are upon us, which will ultimately include wars everywhere, and the LDS people will prevail because God is with us. This is all very apocalyptic thinking and founded solidly on scripture and its exegesis since the beginning of the LDS faith. That means that yes, "political" divisions such as SSM will eventually form a line in the sand we as a people cannot allow "gentiles" to cross in compelling us to adopt the "laws of the land", which if unconstitutional, we cannot in good conscience adopt into our religion. That's when the open fight would start. But, we are also told in prophetic terms that God will fight our battles for us. We won't have a lick-spittle's chance of winning a physical war, so we won't take up arms, but will be as the Nephites when told to flee or not fight, and God delivers....

You are also aware that you are linking two fundamentally distinct things... the restored gospel of christ and the US constitution. The LDS church is US constitution independent. The constitution can be violated every day from now to the end of time... that only impacts Americans, not the Church.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

There is, down in our neutrinos, a feeling amongst those of us whose Mormon ancestry goes back to prior to 1869, that the Utah War has never ended and never will end. There are no longer any field guns on the bluff overlooking Temple Square, but there are field guns on the fluff overlooking Point of the Mountain. There is, moreover, evidence that the US' anti-Mormon policies of the XIXth Century both motivated the sequester of >60% of all lands inside Utah (as well as essentially all mineral rights under all lands) as US lands, and continues to be such that Utah, and, therefore, Mormons, should always struggle economically . . . all in order to avert a perceived Antebellum threat of a Mormon Theocracy in the West that would be a dagger in the back of the US.

The only issue has ever been "what will be the trigger event that will cause a rehashing of XIXth Century Official AntiMormonism." I believe that homosexual marriage is that issue. To enforce in the name of an allegedly oppressed minority a suppression of the dastardly practice of man/woman-only marriages at the point of the gun on pain of disincorporation and attainder or worse is where this is all leading. I am not alone in my fears. But if called upon, I will put both body and soul at risk in defense of the Temples and our G-d (not government) granted rights of free exercise.

You may argue against this fear, but tell me, honestly: when has SCOTUS ever upheld free exercise against a claimed liberty right? The correct answer is: "Never."

So for those with deep mormon roots dating back into the mid 1800's there is a war that never stopped and you think gay marriage will do away with an informal armistise between the US govt and Utah Mormons.

It is important to again point out this is not a theological conflict between the church and US govt but a political dispute between the descendants of disenfranchised early pioneers who happened to be Mormon and the US govt. I certainly agree that the actions of the US govt towards early mormon settlers were a grave breach of liberty. This is however, a political dispute between Utah and the govt of the USA, not the Church.

[cdowis]

Obama just announced that he is opposed to forcing churches to perform SS marriages.

I am so relieved.

Edited June 26, 2013 by cdowis

[Bikeemikey]

Obama just announced that he is opposed to forcing churches to perform SS marriages.

Thats lucky, he is also not legally capable of compelling them to perform SS marriages even if he wanted to.

It might be time to recognize that our church, for the most part, does not perform marriages... we perform temple sealings. In the USA this ceremony is also sufficient to constitute a legal marriage. In most countries it is not. The number of straight up marriages our church performs is minuscule.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[ERayR]

Obama just announced that he is opposed to forcing churches to perform SS marriages.

Whoopee he also assured everyone that Obama care would reduce our medical insurance costs along with various other assurances that are turning out to be smoke too.

[Senator]

There is, moreover, evidence that the US' anti-Mormon policies of the XIXth Century both motivated the sequester of >60% of all lands inside Utah (as well as essentially all mineral rights under all lands) as US lands, and continues to be such that Utah, and, therefore, Mormons, should always struggle economically . .

The Feds must really be after the Mormons in Nevada.

[Bikeemikey]

Whoopee he also assured everyone that Obama care would reduce our medical insurance costs along with various other assurances that are turning out to be smoke too.

Lets not make this political. I am interested in whether the ideas expressed in the opening post a strongly and commonly held by Mormons in the USA.

[ERayR]

Lets not make this political. I am interested in whether the ideas expressed in the opening post a strongly and commonly held by Mormons in the USA.

I haven't got time right now to look them up but there are several early church prophecies that support this view. It is also startling to see current events moving in that direction.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We are Christ's Church and we must obey his commands, so the Church cannot and will not support Gay marriage. As far as going to war with the US Gov't that is just silly. I do wonder how many in Temple Recommend interviews can say they support the Prophet and (on this issue) do not. I support the "Proclamation on the Family", and make no apology, even though I have a gay child whom I love unconditionally.

[Senator]

The only issue has ever been "what will be the trigger event that will cause a rehashing of XIXth Century Official AntiMormonism." I believe that homosexual marriage is that issue.

I don't. Any tension created by the homosexual issue can be easily remedied, as has already been seen in other countries. No, in my mind the only major cause for riffs with the Gov't will be do to the fallout (perceived likeness) from the resistance (politically and socially) to an immerging and aggressive Islam. We're small potatoes. Edited June 26, 2013 by Senator

[tyler90az]

Anybody who is a true seeker of truth should watch this video. Remember the same line we use to get people to read the Book of Mormon. If you choose not to watch this don't use that line again. Seriously.

http://www.upworthy.com/every-biblical-argument-against-being-gay-debunked-biblically

[tyler90az]

This stuff about causing war against the church is ludicrous. Latter-day Saints are in many, many, many high places in the US and World. We have too much influence to just be attacked.

Edited June 26, 2013 by tyler90az

[Brian 2.0]

I do wonder how many in Temple Recommend interviews can say they support the Prophet and (on this issue) do not. I support the "Proclamation on the Family", and make no apology.

The Proclamation of the Family is not asked about in the interview nor is the POTF canonized having been put forward to the church body for a sustaining vote.

I think you could say in your temple recommend interview that you support and sustain the prophet as the one holding the keys etc, but that you feel they were giving their opinions in the POTF and you would still be approved for a recommend.

[Bikeemikey]

The Proclamation of the Family is not asked about in the interview nor is the POTF canonized having been put forward to the church body for a sustaining vote.

I think you could say in your temple recommend interview that you support and sustain the prophet as the one holding the keys etc, but that you feel they were giving their opinions in the POTF and you would still be approved for a recommend.

I dont ever see there being a temple recommend interview where the POTF comes up unless the interviewing priesthood holder has gone beyond the scope. There is a word for that... unrighteous dominion.

[Madmardigan]

My take is that it is inevitable that Gay Marriage will be instituted all around eventually. The Church is just stating its position on the matter so there is no confusion. I don't think the brethren really believe that it will go away and we will "win" the argument.

The church will get attacked ever increasingly on the the matter as well, get sued, etc. However, the work will go on, the church will grow, we'll keep on keeping on, and become more peculiar every day.

I look forward to the future and see great things coming along with all the bad that there is.

[USU78]

The Feds must really be after the Mormons in Nevada.

You forget your history: most of Nevada was part of Utah for a very long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Territory

Utah Territory included within its boundaries all of Colorado West of the Great Divide, and all of Nevada north of about a line that goes through to Cedar City.

[Brian 2.0]

I dont ever see there being a temple recommend interview where the POTF comes up unless the interviewing priesthood holder has gone beyond the scope. There is a word for that... unrighteous dominion.

I totally agree. And I don't think Pa Pa was saying it does or should, but he does openly wonder how people who support gay marriage could answer the temple recommend question. I was showing how one could.

[Buzzard]

A real shooting war, obviously not. But I firmly believe that especially in "progressive" states like CA, and possibly at the federal level there will be moves to strip the church of tax-exempt status, and any and all preferences normally granted to non-profit organizations. And it will be because of our "discriminatory policies". I hope I'm wrong, but afraid that the gay movement takes no prisoners and brooks no compromise, if that is the case, things will get uncomfortable for both the church and it's members.

[USU78]

So for those with deep mormon roots dating back into the mid 1800's there is a war that never stopped and you think gay marriage will do away with an informal armistise between the US govt and Utah Mormons.

It is important to again point out this is not a theological conflict between the church and US govt but a political dispute between the descendants of disenfranchised early pioneers who happened to be Mormon and the US govt. I certainly agree that the actions of the US govt towards early mormon settlers were a grave breach of liberty. This is however, a political dispute between Utah and the govt of the USA, not the Church.

Pogroms always have, at their heart, a desire by those pushing the pogrom for political advantage: Buchanan's Blunder was one such, since it was pushed by Southern senators as payback for their support of Buck during the then late presidential election. During the armistice of 1859-1896, the GOP was behind, for the most part, the antiMormon legislation, though the wedge issue was polygyny. Political advantage, however, motivated the war during the armistice.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The Proclamation of the Family is not asked about in the interview nor is the POTF canonized having been put forward to the church body for a sustaining vote.

I think you could say in your temple recommend interview that you support and sustain the prophet as the one holding the keys etc, but that you feel they were giving their opinions in the POTF and you would still be approved for a recommend.

It was published by the Prophet (first Presidency) and the 12, which makes it the word of God, and should be supported as the will of God, and the men who published it, should be supported in this doctrine. It is very clear than anytime a Priesthood holder speaks while inspired by the Holy Ghost...it is scripture. When it comes to this issue, too many think it is just the opinion of 15 old men and means nothing. It you would like "canon"...God's first commandment..."multiply and replenish the earth", his first institution...marriage between male and female. So the question is; does what God commands mean nothing? It is not an opinion but the doctrine of God.