Bsa Considering Ending Ban On Homosexuals

[Buckeye]

I don't think this will ever happen while President Monson is alive. I don't think he can bring himself to be "the one who pulled the plug on BSA." .

100% agree. It would crush him, and a lot of others too. My impression is that this is actually fairly beneficial for the church. It will not change our policies. But it will take a lot of pressure off the church during what may already be a tough public relations year. The biggest impact is that some LDS scouts may now have interaction with actively gay scout leaders during the course of summer camps or other cross-unit activities. But our youth are already having such interactions in school, work, and even church service projects with other organizations. It really will not be a big deal.

[Buzzard]

That wouldn't really change things much within the Church, then. I'm sure the Church would continue to maintain a low profile as far as overtly barring gay but celibate men/boys to serve in Scout callings or be in troops. Many of us know men/boys in this category, and they are allowed to serve in calliings and participate in Scouts.

I would be shocked if the Church commented on this at all, and it doesn't seem like a big deal to me UNLESS this change means sexually active gay men and boys. THAT would make the Scout oath nothing but a joke.

IMHO, a celibate "gay" is not gay, he is a virtuous man living the law of chastity. Non-celibate straight men are currently allowed to be leaders in some troops. (There was that dustup at the summer camp we went to years ago. The head staffer was bunked with his girlfriend, also a staffer. This caused no issues all summer, except for the "LDS week". Judgmental or standing up for the Scout Oath? You decide.)

What if legally married gays wanted to be a leaders and bunk together. This isn't a slippery slope, it's a water park.

[rongo]

Technically, this would depend on the council. Many councils, including mine, have a "dont ask don't tell" policy. This allows LDS units to register celibate gay youth and even leaders, provided that we don't inform the council.

I'm still not clear on whether BSA policy ever applied to "celibate gay youth" or whether it banned sexually active, practicing gay youth. Ditto for leaders.

Friendly CFR (for anyone who can post one) that this always was the interpretation and intent and not how we do it now. Thanks!

[Damien the Leper]

Being forced into a no win situation. I dont see why BSA doesnt just keep the same standard in place they have always had. Must every organization be swayed to the lack of principle that Sodom and Gomorrah had?

What did the prophet Ezekiel say was the sin of Sodom (Hint: Ezk 16:49)?

[rongo]

Funny (or not so funny ---- you decide) aside to all of this:

We had an emotionally disturbed boy (adopted, horrible background) in our troop who tried to rape his older brother (who was normal --- and a lot bigger than him. It wasn't much of an attempt). His mother, who adopted lots of special needs children for government money, actively divested herself of her children as much as possible, and insisted that he go to camp. We as a bishopric were inclined to not let him go, but finally said he could. The YM leaders were aware and told to watch him carefully. He was required to have his own tent (the other boys shared a giant tent). While they weren't aware of these specifics, the boy was weird, and also prone to wetting the bed and soiling his pants. So, the others were pretty happy with the arrangements.

On the first night, one of the boys got sick and projectile vomited all over everybody as he tried to unzip the door to the giant tent to get out. Why he didn't just throw up by the door, and instead turned and achieved full coverage of the whole tent interior, is unknown. So, the boy in his own tent by himself was actually the only one who escaped that (sleeping bags are never quite the same after that, and there wasn't anything like good cleaning supplies for that kind of thing).

As bishop, I was with the priests on a week-long primitive camping canoe trip, so I heard about it afterwards.

[rockpond]

I'm still not clear on whether BSA policy ever applied to "celibate gay youth" or whether it banned sexually active, practicing gay youth. Ditto for leaders.

Friendly CFR (for anyone who can post one) that this always was the interpretation and intent and not how we do it now. Thanks!

From BSA Legal News Releases, scroll to the bottom of the page...

The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.”

Not sure if that's what you are looking for but it appears to me that a youth who is openly gay violates their policy regardless of celibacy. It's an interesting statement though since they do "not proactively inquire" and yet they still state that they "do not grant membership" to those individuals. So, it really does appear to be a DADT policy.

[Damien the Leper]

And sexual depravity. Consider the etymology of the word sodomy.

"Sodomy" is not the equivalent, as many may ignorantly assume, as the Greek word ἀρσενοκοῖτaι. It seems Paul created the word and is translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind." There is really no connection between the two except for cultural understandings.

[Damien the Leper]

By allowing leaders who are openly gay/ homosexual, it sends the message to the young and very impressionable boys that it is ok to be gay. Not only that issue but it wouldnt be right to have leaders who are openly gay in close contact with young boys who have raging hormones. Its all just wrong, wrong, wrong! The myriad of problems this would have. BSA would have a lot more problems to deal with and lawsuits stacking up against it. Not to mention Gods indignation for allowing such principle to take place.

I don't have a problem with people who have same sex attraction who don't act on those feelings. That is not the issue at hand with BSA's decision. Their decision is about allowing openly gay people who are not morally clean to be a part of their organization. That is wrong.

Right! Because every person is just one step away from being a pervert or pedophile. That's just ridiculous!

BTW, it is okay to be gay.

[Damien the Leper]

Just curious, would you feel comfortable with male Girl Scout leaders, especially on over-night camp outs?

Don't priesthood leaders stay over night on young women's camp outs? Whether there are adult women present or not is irrelevent to the point.

[Damien the Leper]

1) It is okay to be gay

2) It would be inappropriate for a heterosexual scout leader to flaunt his sex life in front of the scouts. I don't imagine the standard being any different for gay leaders.

Hallelujah! It's official! I am now moving to Canada!

[rongo]

Don't priesthood leaders stay over night on young women's camp outs? Whether there are adult women present or not is irrelevent to the point.

Yeah, but they are relagated to the "priesthood cabin" in the nether reaches of the camp. Or at least we were at our girls camp!

[rockpond]

By allowing leaders who are openly gay/ homosexual, it sends the message to the young and very impressionable boys that it is ok to be gay. Not only that issue but it wouldnt be right to have leaders who are openly gay in close contact with young boys who have raging hormones. Its all just wrong, wrong, wrong! The myriad of problems this would have. BSA would have a lot more problems to deal with and lawsuits stacking up against it. Not to mention Gods indignation for allowing such principle to take place.

I don't have a problem with people who have same sex attraction who don't act on those feelings. That is not the issue at hand with BSA's decision. Their decision is about allowing openly gay people who are not morally clean to be a part of their organization. That is wrong.

There have been and likely always will be gay leaders within the BSA. So one question we all ought to ask ourselves is this: Would we prefer that those gay leaders be "out" or "closeted"?

[Damien the Leper]

Yeah, but they are relagated to the "priesthood cabin" in the nether reaches of the camp. Or at least we were at our girls camp!

That doesn't negate the fact that any of those men could still be a predator and find a way to do harm.

[go_utes01]

No disrespect but this isn't a relative comparison, doesn't seem to even belong.

No disrespect, but why do you believe that this is this not a relative comparison?

[daz2]

Historical note: The Church has already had its own scouting program (the MIA scouts) for a short period, before it joined BSA in 1913. http://www.boyacks.com/scouting/LDS%20Scouting%20Story.htm

If BSA allows other troops not to expel or deny membership to gay youth or leaders (celibate or not), I don't have a problem with that. ScoutsCanada has long allowed gay scouts and leaders, and the Church continues to sponsor scouting there, in part because it can follow its own religious policies in its troops.

[rongo]

There have been and likely always will be gay leaders within the BSA. So one question we all ought to ask ourselves is this: Would we prefer that those gay leaders be "out" or "closeted"?

My mom said she was heartbroken when Rock Hudson was "outed" (dying of AIDS). Not that she was under the delusion that she had a chance with him, but that she was saddened when it came out. People used to conceal it, and hardly anybody knew.

Before people get up in arms about me saying that, think about it. The people we are talking about, who in fact have SSA but don't advertise or telegraph it, don't act upon it, and don't want to draw attention to it, prefer to remain "closeted."

Another question we ought to ask is: is it better for gay men and boys who don't want people to know and don't want to draw attention to it to remain "closeted?"

[go_utes01]

I don't think this will ever happen while President Monson is alive. I don't think he can bring himself to be "the one who pulled the plug on BSA." Can you imagine what would happen to BSA financially without the FOS and chartering money from the LDS units (not to mention the leadership and influence from within LDS Scouters ---- way disproportionate to our numbers)?

My father-in-law and mother-in-law were both Silver Beavers with a lifetime of dedication to Scouting (this caused heavy resentment for my wife, who never had her dad on daddy/daughter nights, or many other things because he was doing Scouting). He held the highest position you can hold without being paid (he was over several stakes in the Salt Lake area), and he told me that the Church already has a contingency plan for the Untergang of Scouting: the Catholic, Methodist, and LDS churches would sever ties and have their own program, which would closely resemble Scouting but would have no ties whatsoever to BSA. This is a little disappointing to me (if true), because I'm also in favor of doing our own Church program and not a knock-off.

Or no Scouting-esque program at all, and we simply do young men's activities with clear purposes in mind and the ingenuity and creativity of our leaders.

One significant downside to disassociating with the BSA and having a Church-based program is the relative cultural importance placed on Eagle Scouts. Being an Eagle Scout is a helpful accolade for a young man for college admittance or employment application - not sure an LDS equivalent would be as helpful, especially outside of the LDS culture.

[rongo]

One significant downside to disassociating with the BSA and having a Church-based program is the relative cultural importance placed on Eagle Scouts. Being an Eagle Scout is a helpful accolade for a young man for college admittance or employment application - not sure an LDS equivalent would be as helpful, especially outside of the LDS culture.

This is rapidly losing its significane and relevance, mainly because it has lost any meaning or integrity. Today's Eagles pale in comparison to yesteryear's.

I have been told by many employers that they immediately throw away resumes that list "Eagle Scout" or "Zone leader" on them (the latter was by a Corel HR guy who spoke to the PRSSA at BYU. He gave a symposium on resume do's and don'ts) because they regard them as fluff.

[Buckeye]

That doesn't negate the fact that any of those men could still be a predator and find a way to do harm.

Val - in my stake, we have pretty high standards for the adult males who are assigned to assist at girl's camp. Pretty much you have to be bishopric trustworthy.

As a funny aside, though, I remember a combined priesthood meeting shortly after I turned 18 when the bishop asked for volunteers to assist at girls camp. I raised my hand and was summarily put down.

[go_utes01]

This is rapidly losing its significane and relevance, mainly because it has lost any meaning or integrity. Today's Eagles pale in comparison to yesteryear's.

I have been told by many employers that they immediately throw away resumes that list "Eagle Scout" or "Zone leader" on them (the latter was by a Corel HR guy who spoke to the PRSSA at BYU. He gave a symposium on resume do's and don'ts) because they regard them as fluff.

Interesting. I am not an Eagle Scout - but, my impression was my friends listed it on their resumes. Maybe not such a good idea.

[Buckeye]

This is rapidly losing its significane and relevance, mainly because it has lost any meaning or integrity. Today's Eagles pale in comparison to yesteryear's.

I have been told by many employers that they immediately throw away resumes that list "Eagle Scout" or "Zone leader" on them (the latter was by a Corel HR guy who spoke to the PRSSA at BYU. He gave a symposium on resume do's and don'ts) because they regard them as fluff.

That's unfortunate. I'm an Eagle. The only two things that have stayed contant on every resume I've written are (i) my name and (ii) Eagle Scout. Everything else changes. I haven't revised my resume in years, but I imagine if I ever have to that I'll keep the Eagle Scout reference.

[Sleeper Cell]

This is just another way for them to gain experience in this life so that they can judge good from evil.

In today’s society, the last thing we need to worry about is that our children may be too insulated from the things of this world to be able to judge good from evil. If anything, the problem is not insufficient exposure to what is evil, but insufficient exposure to what is good.

Also, as a man, I am poignantly aware of society's tendancy to label an entire group as suspect pedophiles because of the bad actions of a few. I will not heap that injustice on gays.

I do not believe that the percentage of pedophiles in the gay population is any greater than the percentage of pedophiles in the non-gay population. But it seems logical that gay male pedophiles are more likely to molest boys than non-gay male pedophiles. If gay males are not allowed to be scout leaders, there will be fewer pedophile scout leaders molesting the boys in their troops.

Is this an injustice against the 99.99% of gay men who are not pedophiles? Certainly. But it is a much greater injustice for a boy to be molested by a trusted scout leader . Isn’t the lesser injustice against a gay man worth it if this policy prevents one boy from being molested by a scout leader?

Ultimately, isn’t Scouting supposed to be all about the boys, not about the egos and hurt feelings of some of the adult leaders?

[Saints Alive]

I know of several Eagle Scouts who are planning on returning their award if the BSA bends on this moral stand. I'm not sure i will go that far but I am not ruling it out either.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hey Scott, do you know if DN is going to run an article on this BSA policy change (assuming it happens)? It seems DN has stayed out of recent culture issues such as women/pants and women praying in conference.

There's a wire story up on the website now.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Damien the Leper]

I know of several Eagle Scouts who are planning on returning their award if the BSA bends on this moral stand. I'm not sure i will go that far but I am not ruling it out either.

Like this?