Alma 39:6

[inquiringmind]

Alma 39:6 reads "For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness."

Is there any way, scripturally (and I mean from LDS scripture), to determine what is meant by "when it once has had place in you"?

Does it mean once you've been influenced by the Holy Spirit, once you've received a witness of Christ from The Holy Spirit (as a Mormon blogger called "Gramps" says Ellen G. White had), once you've received a testimony that the BOM is true, or once you've been born again (by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost thru ordinances administered by those holding proper priesthood authority?)?

Does anyone know what "has had place in you" means here?

[TAO]

From what I understand, it takes more than that... it takes a true knowledge that God exists. Similar to the ones apostles and prophetas have.

[inquiringmind]

From what I understand, it takes more than that... it takes a true knowledge that God exists. Similar to the ones apostles and prophetas have.

Are you talking about the second Comforter?

[inquiringmind]

Are the terms "had place," "given place," or "taken place" used anywhere else in LDS scripture (in a way that might clarify it's meaning here in Alma 39:6)?

[JAHS]

Acording to Joseph Smith:

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.

He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open;

he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "

(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

[inquiringmind]

Acording to Joseph Smith:

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.

He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it with his eyes open;

he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; "

(Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse)

Does having the heavens opened refer to the second Comforter?

Alma 39:6 seems to set the bar a little lower than that, doesn't it?

It speaks of it being unforgivable to deny The Holy Ghost "when once it's had place in you," and I'm trying to figure out what "when once it's had place in you" means?

Is there anything in the BOM, the D&C, or the POGP that might clarify this?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

From what I understand, it takes more than that... it takes a true knowledge that God exists. Similar to the ones apostles and prophetas have.

On another thread, I asked

Didn't Joseph once say that the devil could speak in tongues?

If glossolalia is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, would saying it was of the devil be blasphemy of The Spirit?

If Joseph Smith was a prophet inspired by God, would suggesting he was influenced by evil spirits be blasphemy of The Spirit?

and PaPa said

No...not unless you know that it is without a doubt true and you then deny it. If this happens you can never be forgiven.

So, even if you've never had a burning in the bosom, if you felt certain that God was pointing you to the LDS Church one day, and told yourself you must be wrong the next, would that be denying The Holy Ghost?

If you flipped in your mind, in your thoughts (in what you felt was certain) like that, would that be unforgivable?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

P.S. What does having your testimony "sealed by The Holy Spirit of promise" mean?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Alma 39:6 reads "For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness."

Is there any way, scripturally (and I mean from LDS scripture), to determine what is meant by "when it once has had place in you"?

Does it mean once you've been influenced by the Holy Spirit, once you've received a witness of Christ from The Holy Spirit (as a Mormon blogger called "Gramps" says Ellen G. White had), once you've received a testimony that the BOM is true, or once you've been born again (by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost thru ordinances administered by those holding proper priesthood authority?)?

Does anyone know what "has had place in you" means here?

It means to know...nothing doubting. With that knowing comes great responsibility.

[inquiringmind]

It means to know...nothing doubting. With that knowing comes great responsibility.

Would it be more than a momentary "aha" moment?

Also, would it have anything to do with knowing that Jesus died for you, and that you personally can be saved?

If you lived with the fear of having committed the unpardonable sin long before you ever heard of the LDS Church, could the Holy Spirit have had place in you even while you doubted you could be saved?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Would it be more than a momentary "aha" moment?

Also, would it have anything to do with knowing that Jesus died for you, and that you personally can be saved?

If you lived with the fear of having committed the unpardonable sin long before you ever heard of the LDS Church, could the Holy Spirit have had place in you even while you doubted you could be saved?

Not sure...the Bibleis clear, we can sin against theFather and the Son and be forgiven. But to sin against the Holy Ghost is another matter.When Spirit speaks to spirit it is unmistakable.

[inquiringmind]

Not sure...the Bibleis clear, we can sin against theFather and the Son and be forgiven. But to sin against the Holy Ghost is another matter.When Spirit speaks to spirit it is unmistakable.

"When Spirit speaks to spirit it is unmistakable"?

Suppose you've never been baptized or confirmed by anyone Mormons would recognize as having priesthood authority, and suppose you've never had the burning in the bosom, but you have struggled with interpreting coincidences.

Now suppose you caught yourself thinking "I've got this, that, and the other reason to believe the Church is true, and I can't see any other way to interpret these "signs" (at the moment), so the Church must be true," but then you thought of some alternate interpretations, all the reasons you've had for doubting the Church, and questioned it again.

Now you're not even sure how "certain" you were for that one brief moment or two (and you haven't been trying to destroy the Church, or damage anyone else's faith since.)

But could that moment of thinking that things added up to only one conclusion (God prompting you to join The Church) have been The Holy Ghost speaking to you?

And could taking those thoughts to be your own thoughts, and going back to your questioning and doubting, be the unforgivable sin of denying The Holy Ghost?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

This is an email I received from an Anglican priest I know, and that I remember thinking about on the day I caught myself thinking the LDS Church must be true (and then returned to my questioning and doubting.)

I'm sure the Mormons are usually nice people. But that doesn't make their religion true, nor anything they say to get you to "convert" reasonable or non-manipulative.

Be warned that the more you open yourself up to heresy and cooperate with it, the easier deception becomes. Every time you enter the zone of the Mormons, in the shadow of the "angel" Moroni, knowing what the Catholic Faith teaches about this heresy and its false prophet, you make yourself vulnerable.

Normal reasoning and knowledge of the relevant history and the Scriptures is abundantly sufficient to discount Mormonism, so any seeking of signs after that is sinful, since it ignores what has already been given and asks for more. It is both obligatory and obviously sensible to use such ordinary means first in seeking the truth. Therefore anyone who is deceived by Satanic signs, happenstance or other factors after not using and prioritising ordinary and accessible means is at least partly responsible for their error. As I have said before, both countless orthodox Christians and many heretics can point to personal and even miraculous "signs" that can persuade them they are on the right track. This is not surprising given that the NT specifically warned that deceivers (human and demonic) would come with persuasive 'signs" (e.g., Revelation 16:14). The difference is that, on the more fundamental level of general evidence, orthodoxy is a clear winner. God asks us to search for the truth till we find it, then rest in it, and our mind and conscience impel us to do this from within

You should not go to this service, but if you do I ask you to continue making the sign of the cross and asking for God's mercy, Christ's grace, and acts of faith in your Christian baptism and its effects. Also, ask Mary and all Saints for their prayers, or, if you are afraid to do this, ask God to grant you the intercessory prayers of them all.

As for the "God above gods" concept, this is just an imperfect, belated return to something closer to Catholic metaphysics after having condemned it. It is not even the Mormon position, but this private, individual Mormon's speculation based on some ambiguous phrases from other sources, designed to "complete" Mormon theology, as he puts it

Could what I took to be my own thoughts (i.e. The Church must be true for this, that, and the other reason) have been the Testimony of The Spirit?

If it was, and I allowed this email (among other things) to cause me to question and doubt again, was that the unpardonable sin?

Am I lost?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I was just listening to "The Life of Martin Harris, Patterns of Humility and Repentance" (by Larry E. Morris, production editor of The Joseph Smith Papers.)

He says that after talking to Joseph and his family, Martin reported (in his diary, I take it) that "I retired to my bedroom and prayed God to show me concerning these things, and an answer came thru the still small voice spoken in the soul, then I was satisfied that it was the work of the Lord, and I was under covenant to bring it forth"

That was in 1827.

Did The Holy Ghost have a place in him from that day forward?

Did he never doubt or question the work after that?

If he had, would it have been a denial of The Holy Ghost?

Could he never have been forgiven?

P.S. It looks like he did doubt and question the work, even after he had received an answer to his questions "thru the still small voice spoken in the soul," and "was satisfied that it was the work of the Lord."

Smith's mother, Lucy, "said that Harris asked Joseph for a look at the plates, for 'a further witness of their actual existence and that he might be better able to give a reason for the hope that was within him.' When that request was denied, he asked about the manuscript. Could he at least take it home to reassure his wife?" (Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005), 66:)

http://en.wikipedia....es#cite_note-15

So getting back to Alma 39:6, what does "when it once has had place in you" mean?

Does it mean receiving the kind of witness Martin received in 1827, the burning in the bosom, or the gift of The Holy Ghost?

Is there a scriptural answer to this (with LDS scripture to back it up)?

Edited December 19, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Christian Mormon]

P.S. What does having your testimony "sealed by The Holy Spirit of promise" mean?

edited for more study to answer correctly

Could some one else answer this?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Christian Mormon

[TAO]

No, that email causing you to doubt would not be the unpardonable sin. As JAHS quoted earlier,

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him."

Now, it is simply important to overcome your doubts and put them behind you =). That is what the Lord wants us all to do. If you want to know that for yourself, you should pray about it, and ask him.

Edited December 19, 2012 by TAO

[CV75]

Does anyone know what "has had place in you" means here?

It is all the things you mentioned and probably more, and each as a matter of degree, as are the degree of denial, sin, pardonability/unpardonability, murder against the light, ease to repent and receive forgiveness, yea, the ease to repent and receive forgiveness.

[blooit]

I really struggle with this one. To me, there is no greater confirmation that a witness by the spirit. I can see all the angles in the world or even God himself, but the witness I received from the Holy Ghost is the only certain I have. This makes me wonder if I could qualify for denying the Holy Ghost.

[CV75]

Am I lost?

It's a matter of degree.

[CV75]

This makes me wonder if I could qualify for denying the Holy Ghost.

It's a matter of degree.

[DavidB]

A Blogger named "gramps" or any Blogger is not a source one should look too for LDS Doctrine or expansion on Doctrine; most especially some random person at a keyboard and internet connection is the last place anyone.should rely on to determine if someone has committed grievous sin...I.e. Blogger gramps

[Nominee]

I can share my own knowledge of God for comparison.

I know that my Heavenly Father; his son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Spirit exist and are beyond the shadow of any doubt. Nothing said at any time by anyone could change that. It would be easier to try to convince me that I never gave birth to my children and raised them up these last many years. To convince me that my son, Caleb, is not sitting next to me right now while I look upon him would be easier than to convince me the Holy Spirit is not with us.

That said, I have been angry with God, I have ignored the Holy Spirit, I have sinned in my life - knowing that I was doing so. But I have NEVER denied the existence of any portion of the Godhead!

What you "think you know" and what you know are not the same. You would have to KNOW. For me, to deny the existence of the Holy Ghost would be comparable to me being in this room, 5 feet from our Christmas tree, and you to come in and ask me, "Is that a Christmas tree right here in this room in front of us?" And for me to look at you and say "There is no tree in this room." This is denial when having a knowledge of the truth.

I do not know God because I have lived long enough, or researched well enough, or am willing or susceptible enough. I know God because he has revealed himself to me through his (the) Holy Spirit. And for this, I know the Spirit too and could never deny it.

They are not only real, they are alive.

~ Naomi

Edited December 20, 2012 by Nominee

[inquiringmind]

It is all the things you mentioned and probably more, and each as a matter of degree, as are the degree of denial, sin, pardonability/unpardonability, murder against the light, ease to repent and receive forgiveness, yea, the ease to repent and receive forgiveness.

What do you take this to mean?

And he shall ^arise the ^bthird day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to ^cjudge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men. For behold, and also his ^ablood ^batoneth for the sins of those who have ^cfallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the ^dwill of God concerning them, or who have ^eignorantly sinned. But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he ^arebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the ^bLord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:10-12.)

Doesn't everyone who knowingly rebels against God commit the unpardonable sin?

Edited December 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

That said, I have been angry with God, I have ignored the Holy Spirit, I have sinned in my life - knowing that I was doing so. But I have NEVER denied the existence of any portion of the Godhead!

Is that what the denial of the Holy Ghost is?

Denying His existence?

[TAO]

It's more than that inquring. It's physically knowing he is there, and they denying it. LIke denying the noon-day-sun. Very difficult to do. Remember Alma the Younger, and all he did, denying things even though he knew better? And yet even he obtained repentance. He came back to the fold of God and made that choice. To me, this signifies that people who will be SoPs are very rare indeed... and I hope there aren't many, because it's a horrible place to be.