The Angel And Sorcerer: The Remarkable Story Of The Occult Origins Of Mormonism And The Rise Of Mormons In American Politics

[Nathair/|\]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Angel-Sorcerer-Remarkable-Mormonism/dp/0892542004

Does anyone know anything about this book? I heard the tail end of a discussion about it on Coast to Coast the other night, but not enough to have any response. They mentioned the Salamander forgeries, the Jupiter talisman alleged to have been in Joseph's possession when he died, and the Masonic cry he gave before he died on the radio show.

I wonder if someone like Kerry Shirts or Volgadon could get on the show and give a response.

[Storm Rider]

As I read the review I really just laughed out loud. Who says man does not seek after fame and glory using only a bare minimum of knowledge or understanding. This book takes the worst of anti-Mormon spin and wraps it all in something that appears shiny and new. Joseph is a sorcerer par excellence and all he ever did can only be seen through this particular lens of magic. I think I would rather eat rocks then be forced to read this type of intellectual tripe.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

T'be honest, I don't have any particular animus against the cultural frame provided by the Magic Worldview or the Refiner's Fire (or whatever) that folks seem to be so scandalized by (this guy lists the usual trifecta of Brodie, Quinn, and Brooke as his first sources). Basic symbolism can be repurposed any number of ways; it's the underlying ideas that are important. As far as I can tell, God works with what He has, and if Joseph Smith was some Hermetic Magus holdover from the Renaissance hiding out in New England, that's perfectly cool, Jupiter Talisman and all. We're supposed to gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up; if other philosophies and religions have good stuff, then let's add it to the pile. I haven't read more of the opening post's linked book than the few pages available on Amazon (seems a little Dan Brown-y, and the inclusion of election-year stuff is kinda annoying), but Gardner's recent The Gift And The Power was, I thought, a nice synthesis of the "official" narrative and the so-called "occult" stuff. fwiw

[RBoylan]

http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0892542004

Does anyone know anything about this book? I heard the tail end of a discussion about it on Coast to Coast the other night, but not enough to have any response. They mentioned the Salamander forgeries, the Jupiter talisman alleged to have been in Joseph's possession when he died, and the Masonic cry he gave before he died on the radio show.

I wonder if someone like Kerry Shirts or Volgadon could get on the show and give a response.

I read it a couple of weeks ago. I much prefer D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (rev. ed; 1998), that volume's many flaws notwithstanding. The Angel and the Sorcerer text is weak, and no real interaction with LDS scholarship on many points he raises, unlike Quinn who follows a somewhat similar thesis.

My suggestion would be to avoid the Angel and the Sorcerer text.

+1 to the suggestion of Brant Gardner's "The Gift and the Power."

[Nathair/|\]

T'be honest, I don't have any particular animus against the cultural frame provided by the Magic Worldview or the Refiner's Fire (or whatever) that folks seem to be so scandalized by (this guy lists the usual trifecta of Brodie, Quinn, and Brooke as his first sources). Basic symbolism can be repurposed any number of ways; it's the underlying ideas that are important. As far as I can tell, God works with what He has, and if Joseph Smith was some Hermetic Magus holdover from the Renaissance hiding out in New England, that's perfectly cool, Jupiter Talisman and all. We're supposed to gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up; if other philosophies and religions have good stuff, then let's add it to the pile. I haven't read more of the opening post's linked book than the few pages available on Amazon (seems a little Dan Brown-y, and the inclusion of election-year stuff is kinda annoying), but Gardner's recent The Gift And The Power was, I thought, a nice synthesis of the "official" narrative and the so-called "occult" stuff. fwiw

I agree entirely. While I think it would be pretty cool if he was a ceremonial magus, I haven't seen any good evidence that he did more than dabble in New England folk magic.

[Nathair/|\]

I read it a couple of weeks ago. I much prefer D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (rev. ed; 1998), that volume's many flaws notwithstanding. The Angel and the Sorcerer text is weak, and no real interaction with LDS scholarship on many points he raises, unlike Quinn who follows a somewhat similar thesis.

My suggestion would be to avoid the Angel and the Sorcerer text.

+1 to the suggestion of Brant Gardner's "The Gift and the Power."

Go raibh, maith agat, Rob. Would you say that the responses already given to Quinn's work would suffice for the present text as well?

[RBoylan]

Go raibh, maith agat, Rob. Would you say that the responses already given to Quinn's work would suffice for the present text as well?

No probs.

I would say so, yes. Bill Hamblin's review of Quinn's book already deal with the arguments in the book when they parallel Quinn's. The review can be found at:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=12&num=2&id=364

I would recommend Gardner's treatment of the "occult" issues over "The Angel and the Sorcerer."

[volgadon]

Oh, is it the same idiot who wrote Ratline?

[Nathair/|\]

Oh, is it the same idiot who wrote Ratline?

According to Amazon, it is. I'd never heard of him until the other day. I'm woefully uninformed about such matters.

[cinepro]

http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0892542004

Does anyone know anything about this book? I heard the tail end of a discussion about it on Coast to Coast the other night, but not enough to have any response. They mentioned the Salamander forgeries, the Jupiter talisman alleged to have been in Joseph's possession when he died, and the Masonic cry he gave before he died on the radio show.

I wonder if someone like Kerry Shirts or Volgadon could get on the show and give a response.

Kerry Shirts is too sane for Coast to Coast.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry Shirts is too sane for Coast to Coast.

I

will take that as a very nice compliment.....thanks!

[volgadon]

Kerry Shirts is too sane for Coast to Coast.

Hey!

[WalkerW]

I read it a couple of weeks ago.

Of course you did...

[Nathair/|\]

Kerry Shirts is too sane for Coast to Coast.

That's disappointing. He was awesome when I thought he was a little mad.

[phadrus]

Normally I like Peter Levenda, but in this case he seems to have compiled a friendly version of anti-Mormon myths about Joesph Smith. It would be interesting to see his sources.

I finally decided to listen to the Whitley Strieber interview with Levenda knowing how painful it would probably be. Well it's not disappointing.

He has his own alternate version of the Moroni visitations where Joseph is doing magic ceremonies at the same time. And as Levenda put's it "according to the stories" (which he says a lot), the angel slapped Joseph up side the head when he tried to touch the plates and so Joseph had to come back in a year and try again.

The kicker that Levenda and Whitley are stating that categorically there was no such thing as reformed Egyptian and there never has been--and that's a huge "problem". Obviously this is a well researched book.

Then I think they mentioned the Jupiter talisman--that was and always has been heresy and has little basis in reality in any case.

To be fair to Levenda, he seems to think all religions started with some sort of occult practices and believes that Joseph's experiences were real. That's better than the usual line that the experiences were fabricated. I think however for Levenda they are just supernatural mystical experiences akin to summoning spirits and not something where he believes Christ is leading revelation.

Other than that there wasn't much in this short interview. I'll listen to the Coast to Coast one too at some point.

[Calm]

phadus, we have a poster named phaedrus, just want to make clear that you two are different and not phaedrus signing up again because of a forgotten password or something so there is no confusion...at least on my part, won't guarantee it won't happen to others.

Edited December 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[Vance]

It would be interesting to see his sources.

Sources?

Anti-mormons don't need no stinking sources. They get to (and very often do) make it up as they go.