treeface Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) I think God does love all, but I have heard anyone suggest Satan could repent, and I assue there is no forgiveness for his sins committed with a perfect knowledge. His fate is set, as are any in this life who deny the Holy Ghost after having received a sure knowledge. If we with the viel drawn, cannot be forgiven in this life or the life to come for such a sin, then Satan will remain as he is...damned.We don't know how far the story of the prodigal son applies. It's about a father with two sons, a good one and a rebellious one. And the story may have been told by one of them. If shattered families can be reconciled down here, if an ancient hatred can be replaced by a present love in this world, why not up there too, among the Gods? Are we that much better than they are?I place no limits on God's ability to forgive and heal the willing and repentant. When and where and for whom does an infiinte and eternal Atonement stop working? Edited November 2, 2012 by treeface
MiserereNobis Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 I think the idea that Satan is the origin of temptation is rather non-sensical - he may be really good at tempting people but the capacity for tempting is pre-existant in the human condition, Satan is not required.In Catholicism, we believe that the origin of temptation is a matrix of three things: the world, the devil, and the flesh.
Bikeemikey Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 In Catholicism, we believe that the origin of temptation is a matrix of three things: the world, the devil, and the flesh.I tend to think temptation exists because we exist as independent agents in a diverse universe, choice is our natural condition. Temptation is the the human condition that motivates us to make choice's that are not optimized.
Calm Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 From the LDS view, if Satan repented, wouldn't that mess up the plan of salvation by removing temptation?In Catholicism, Satan is damned, end-of-story.Satan is not the ultimate source of evil, just one of the many individuals who have decided to devote themselves to it. Temptation can exist without him (as evidenced by the fact that he was tempted as Lucifer prior to the time he 'became' Satan).
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 From the LDS view, if Satan repented, wouldn't that mess up the plan of salvation by removing temptation?In Catholicism, Satan is damned, end-of-story.Satan is incapable of repenting, so that scenario is an inapplicable one. Mormonism is in agreement with catholicism on that score: Satan is damned, end-of-story.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 In LDS Theology no one is beyond the Atonement of Christ that wants it. Presumably that would include Satan and his minions. That the part we have no theology on.In Mormonism, Satan and those who sinned in the preexistence are beyond the atonement. The atonement was not made for them. Mormonism does have a theology on that.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 In LDS Theology no one is beyond the Atonement of Christ that wants it. Presumably that would include Satan and his minions. That the part we have no theology on.In Mormonism, Satan and those who sinned in the preexistence are beyond the atonement. The atonement was not made for them. Mormonism does have a theology on that.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 I think the idea that Satan is the origin of temptation is rather non-sensical - he may be really good at tempting people but the capacity for tempting is pre-existant in the human condition, Satan is not required.Satan is the origin of temptation in the plan of salvation as far as it has been revealed. An alternative scenario is not envisaged in the plan of salvation that has been revealed.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 In Catholicism, we believe that the origin of temptation is a matrix of three things: the world, the devil, and the flesh.That sounds like good Mormon doctrine yo me.
Lightbearer Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 People sometimes say that "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner," and "God loves everyone."I've even heard people say that God loves the devil, and would forgive him if he repented.But is there any scripture, anywhere (Bible, BOM. POGP. etc.), that actually says that God loves everyone?I do not think the scriptures say that directly, it does say that He is no respecter of persons as here:"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it. Behold, the Lord hath created the earth that it should be inhabited; and he hath created his children that they should possess it. And he raiseth up a righteous nation, and destroyeth the nations of the wicked. And he leadeth away the righteous into precious lands, and the wicked he destroyeth, and curseth the land unto them for their sakes. He ruleth high in the heavens, for it is his throne, and this earth is his footstool. And he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Behold, he loved our fathers, and he covenanted with them, yea, even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and he remembered the covenants which he had made; wherefore, he did bring them out of the land of Egypt." (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 17:35-40) So the Lord favors the righteous, and He loveth those who will have him to be their God. No He could not forgive Satan, because Satan is beyond the atonement of Christ He cannot repent and will not. As here: "And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ— Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:25-38) The Prophet Joseph elaborated on the fact that the Sons of perdition cannot be redeemed:(Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Six 1843-44, p.358)"All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil--the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life--the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence." So while God may love all His children, He cannot bless them or save them if they refuse to allow Him.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 From the LDS view, if Satan repented, wouldn't that mess up the plan of salvation by removing temptation?In Catholicism, Satan is damned, end-of-story.Satan is incapable of repenting, so that scenario is an inapplicable one. Mormonism is in agreement with catholicism on that score: Satan is damned, end-of-story.
harfad Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 My apologies for the duplicate posts. My hand held device is playing mean tricks on me, and will not let me edit posts, and I have no alternative means of accessing the Internet at the present time. Hopefully things will change in a couple of weeks time.
altersteve Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Have you ever heard of a father who does not love all his children? 1
spartacus Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 This is one of the things about the LDS Church that I loved. It is so refreshing to hear people say that God loves "everyone" and that we are ALL his children. Yes, I DO believe that with all my heart!Stating that God loves everyone is not unique to the LDS Church - not even close. Stating that we are all his literal children is unique but doesn't that actually shrink the virtue of God's love for us with as much as it instills a duty to love us (as we are his children)?
spartacus Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 John 3:16 certainly implies it. Just because the born-againers hang their hat on that scripture doesn't invalidate it.I should sure hope not.What passes for "justice" in most people's minds would more properly be called "vengeance". In my opinion true justice would be something very different; it would be the undoing of injustice. Vengance does nothing to undo injustice. Our power to undo injustice is quite limited so we don't see how it could happen, but God's power to undo injustice does not suffer from the same limitations."Justice" is righteous consequence. Justice to the victim seems to be what you describe above. Justice to the perpetrator is righteous consequence.
spartacus Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 kinda of a sensitive subject for me. It's easy to say that God loves everyone and I don't want to cause some crisis in anyone but how do you know God loves you personally? Has he said or have you felt his love?"Personally" - does this mean have you subjectively experienced not only God's Love, but God's love FOR you?Or are you just discussing the specificity of God's love? If this is the case, then the parable of the ONE lost sheep is instructive.
Calm Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) Have you ever heard of a father who does not love all his children?Unfortunately, yes, but a perfect father would not have such limitations on his ability to connect with all of his children. Edited November 3, 2012 by calmoriah 1
Calm Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Stating that God loves everyone is not unique to the LDS Church - not even close. Stating that we are all his literal children is unique but doesn't that actually shrink the virtue of God's love for us with as much as it instills a duty to love us (as we are his children)?No since duty is cannot actually create love, just the appearance of love. 1
Libs Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Stating that God loves everyone is not unique to the LDS Church - not even close. Stating that we are all his literal children is unique but doesn't that actually shrink the virtue of God's love for us with as much as it instills a duty to love us (as we are his children)?It is not unique to the LDS Church, but the belief that we are "all" God's children is fairly rare. Most mainstream Christians limit "God's children" to those whom they believe are "saved" (which doesn't include LDS, btw). Most liberal Christians have a little broader definition..Sorry, but I don't understand your question about "shrinking the virtue of God's love". Would you mind rephrasing that?
Duncan Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 "Personally" - does this mean have you subjectively experienced not only God's Love, but God's love FOR you?Or are you just discussing the specificity of God's love? If this is the case, then the parable of the ONE lost sheep is instructive.well, I know he Love's God children of which I am a member-I know that intellectually but i don't know that he loves me personally I don't even know how I would know that
Bikeemikey Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 Satan is incapable of repenting, so that scenario is an inapplicable one. Mormonism is in agreement with catholicism on that score: Satan is damned, end-of-story.I agree with your post that we have no theology on the salvation of satan. I do not agree with his post which makes a theological claim that we do.Also, if satan changed his mind I see no reason to assume gods plan would be impacted.
harfad Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 Also, if satan changed his mind I see no reason to assume gods plan would be impacted.Satan cannot change his mind because his fate is sealed, he has no interest in doing so. He has his own kingdom which he rules over, and wants everyone to be a member of that kingdom. You change your mind if yiu have sn interest in doing so. It is like the SOPs who cannot repent, because it mskes no difference to them if they do or not.
harfad Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 Also, if satan changed his mind I see no reason to assume gods plan would be impacted.Satan cannot change his mind because his fate is sealed, he has no interest in doing so. He has his own kingdom which he rules over, and wants everyone to be a member of that kingdom. You change your mind if yiu have sn interest in doing so. It is like the SOPs who cannot repent, because it mskes no difference to them if they do or not.
inquiringmind Posted November 5, 2012 Author Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) What about Ezekiel 33:11?Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Who are "the wicked," and is this talking about physical death or spritual death (or both)?Does God take pleasure in inflicting a just punishment on anyone?Does He actually hate anyone? Edited November 5, 2012 by inquiringmind
Bikeemikey Posted November 5, 2012 Posted November 5, 2012 Satan cannot change his mind because his fate is sealed, he has no interest in doing so. He has his own kingdom which he rules over, and wants everyone to be a member of that kingdom. You change your mind if yiu have sn interest in doing so. It is like the SOPs who cannot repent, because it mskes no difference to them if they do or not.Not saying I disagree with you... It is just simply an unknowable.
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