Methodists Almost The Most Correct Church.

[altersteve]

Yeah, like in elevators. You're supposed to observe a moment of silence.

Reminds me of that hilariously awkward elevator scene in Jerry Maguire for some reason. Probably because I just watched it.

Sorry, me and love of movies again. Carry on.

[Alan]

Joseph was attracted to the Methodists at an early age and felt some "desire to be united with them". I suspect he had a soft spot for them all of his life.

But remember, we are talking about the Methodist Church of the early 19th century; almost an entirely different entity from the one we see in our day.

[Alan]

We were just hanging out in the catacombs and getting tossed to the lions

No you weren't. The Catholic Church did not exist at that time, and even today it is not the oldest continuous christian church.

[Alan]

We were just hanging out in the catacombs and getting tossed to the lions

No you weren't. The Catholic Church did not exist at that time, and even today it is not the oldest continuous christian church.

[MiserereNobis]

No you weren't. The Catholic Church did not exist at that time, and even today it is not the oldest continuous christian church.

CFR

ETA: Where do you think all the bishops came from when Constantine called the council?

Another thought: what are you defining as the Catholic Church?

Edited October 30, 2012 by MiserereNobis

[Alan]

CFR

ETA: Where do you think all the bishops came from when Constantine called the council?

Another thought: what are you defining as the Catholic Church?

Make up your mind. Are we talking about the time the Christians were in the catacombes, or about the time of Constantine?

Catholic Church? The organisation referred to today as the Roman Catholic Church and headquartered at the Vatican.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Alan

[Bart Burk]

Make up your mind. Are we talking about the time the Christians were in the catacombes, or about the time of Constantine?

Catholic Church? The organisation referred to today as the Roman Catholic Church and headquartered at the Vatican.

There is no difference. The organization existed continuously.

[MiserereNobis]

Make up your mind. Are we talking about the time the Christians were in the catacombes, or about the time of Constantine?

Catholic Church? The organisation referred to today as the Roman Catholic Church and headquartered at the Vatican.

The Catholic Church, with Her heirarchy of bishops (including the Bishop of Rome), existed at the time of the catacombs. That is where the bishops came from who made up the council at the time Constantine. It is odd to say that the RCC started at the time Constantine, because the hierarchy clearly existed prior to him.

[Ahab]

The Catholic Church, with Her heirarchy of bishops (including the Bishop of Rome), existed at the time of the catacombs. That is where the bishops came from who made up the council at the time Constantine. It is odd to say that the RCC started at the time Constantine, because the hierarchy clearly existed prior to him.

Since this thread is supposed to be about the Methodist church, I'm reluctant to start talking about your Church here, but I will say that Joseph probably would have said (or at least thought) that your Church could have also been the true Church if only you changed (or hadn't changed) a few things.

It's only where you're off that you're off, and you do teach a lot of things that are true.

[Mark Beesley]

Is that your view of the apostasy? I've heard so many different views of what constituted the apostasy, but this is the first time on the board that I heard that it was caused by an invalid (or non-existent) ordination.

In my view that is the essence of apostasy, the loss of authority. Authority is what is required to conduct what we believe to be the saving ordinances, such as baptism and confirmation. That authority can be exercised by one who has been authorized to do so even though that person may believe in some kind of false doctrine. For example, prior to 1978, an apostle might have believed the false doctrine that black members of the Church would not receive the Priesthood until all other children of God had been given that opportunity; however, belief in such a false doctrine did not disqualify him from performing in the office of an Apostle.

The Fifth Article of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ is this: We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophesy and by the laying on of hands, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. Once you have lost either of those elements, prophesy or the laying on of hands, then any attempt to transmit authority to another is lost. The loss of true doctrine, in my view, is secondary to loss of authority.

I can be saved believing all manner of false doctrine. I cannot be saved absent the receipt of valid ordinances, and valid ordinances cannot be performed absent valid priesthood authority.

[MiserereNobis]

In my view that is the essence of apostasy, the loss of authority. Authority is what is required to conduct what we believe to be the saving ordinances, such as baptism and confirmation. That authority can be exercised by one who has been authorized to do so even though that person may believe in some kind of false doctrine. For example, prior to 1978, an apostle might have believed the false doctrine that black members of the Church would not receive the Priesthood until all other children of God had been given that opportunity; however, belief in such a false doctrine did not disqualify him from performing in the office of an Apostle.

The Fifth Article of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ is this: We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophesy and by the laying on of hands, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. Once you have lost either of those elements, prophesy or the laying on of hands, then any attempt to transmit authority to another is lost. The loss of true doctrine, in my view, is secondary to loss of authority.

I can be saved believing all manner of false doctrine. I cannot be saved absent the receipt of valid ordinances, and valid ordinances cannot be performed absent valid priesthood authority.

Interesting. The Catholic Church has a similar view -- a man can validly administer the sacraments (ordinances) despite his own personal moral or theological failings. The belief to the contrary, commonly called Donatism, has been condemned as a heresy.

[Ahab]

In my view that is the essence of apostasy, the loss of authority. Authority is what is required to conduct what we believe to be the saving ordinances, such as baptism and confirmation. That authority can be exercised by one who has been authorized to do so even though that person may believe in some kind of false doctrine. For example, prior to 1978, an apostle might have believed the false doctrine that black members of the Church would not receive the Priesthood until all other children of God had been given that opportunity; however, belief in such a false doctrine did not disqualify him from performing in the office of an Apostle.

The Fifth Article of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ is this: We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophesy and by the laying on of hands, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. Once you have lost either of those elements, prophesy or the laying on of hands, then any attempt to transmit authority to another is lost. The loss of true doctrine, in my view, is secondary to loss of authority.

I can be saved believing all manner of false doctrine. I cannot be saved absent the receipt of valid ordinances, and valid ordinances cannot be performed absent valid priesthood authority.

Good points, so we might now expect to hear these questions:

What would disqualify someone from being able to perform a valid ordinance?

OR

What would disqualify someone from being able to act in the capacity to which they had been authorized to act?

OR

How do we know what God wants us to do, and when we are veering from what God has authorized us to do?

OR

Was the Church called the "Catholic Church" EVER organized by men who had been authorized by God to govern his Church?

OR

How can anyone find out whether or not what those men did was authorized by God?

It sure is nice that we can ask God directly to help us to know what is true, otherwise we could easily be deceived, even with the best of intentions.

[Cobalt-70]

I found an online paper alleging that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church in 1828. Google: Joseph Smith Methodist 1828

He did not actually join the Methodist church in 1828. Rather, he joined what we might call an "investigator's class" within the Methodist church, which was a step toward membership. (This happened during the rather depressing period after he lost the 116 manuscript pages and he had a stillborn child.) However, his membership in this class was challenged on the grounds that he was a necromancer, and Smith withdrew.

[Thunderfire]

I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)

What things was he talking about?

I'm not sure about that entire quote. but this is how Joseph's comments regarding the Methodist as recorded in the RLDS Church history:

"Sometime in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country; indeed the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, "lo, here," and some, "lo, there;" some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptists.

For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts for these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody 'converted' as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet, when the converts began to file off, some to one party, and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued, priest contending against priest, and convert against convert, so that all the good feelings, one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words, and a contest about opinions. "I was at this time in my fifteenth year.

My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church; namely, my mother Lucy, my brothers Hyrum, Samuel Harrison, and my sister Sophronia. "During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often pungent, still I kept myself aloof from all those parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit; but in process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them, but so great was the confusion and strife among the different denominations that it was impossible for a person young as I was and so unacquainted

Hope this helps!

[Saints Alive]

Lets redirect this thread a little if we can.

What are the areas that the LDS and Methodist (the ones in Josephs day) have in common.

The first thing that comes to my mind is free will (i.e. agency) and holiness. Any others?

[Ahab]

Lets redirect this thread a little if we can.

What are the areas that the LDS and Methodist (the ones in Josephs day) have in common.

The first thing that comes to my mind is free will (i.e. agency) and holiness. Any others?

The need to have God's authority is a biggie. They think they have it and they think we don't.

I kinda doubt that they'll ever get that one right, collectively.

[Bart Burk]

Lets redirect this thread a little if we can.

What are the areas that the LDS and Methodist (the ones in Josephs day) have in common.

The first thing that comes to my mind is free will (i.e. agency) and holiness. Any others?

John Wesley described his conversion experience as one in which his heart was "strangely warmed."

Edited October 30, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Ahab]

John Wesley described his conversion experience as one in which his heart was "strangely warmed."

I think John Wesley would have become a member of our Lord's church, if he had had the opportunity, kinda like how some other people who were once Methodists later became and even now still become "Mormons".

[Bart Burk]

The need to have God's authority is a biggie. They think they have it and they think we don't.

I kinda doubt that they'll ever get that one right, collectively.

I don't think the Methodists believed they had any more authority than any other Protestant denomination.

[Ahab]

I don't think the Methodists believed they had any more authority than any other Protestant denomination.

If they had only believed that then they wouldn't be far from the kingdom of God.

Where they're mostly wrong is in thinking we don't have God's authority.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Ahab

[Bart Burk]

If they had only believed that then they wouldn't be far from the kingdom of God.

Where they're mostly wrong is in thinking we don't have God's authority.

I don't think they care about LDS authority as much as they do LDS interpretation of the Bible. Protestants believe strongly in the priesthood of all believers, and I think you would find the same is true of Methodism. They reject LDS baptism because of the LDS rejection of traditional Christian doctrines, not because of priesthood authority.

WHEREAS, United Methodists seek to act in ways that are faithful, compassionate, and just in relationship to other faith traditions, extending hospitality toward all and charity toward those whose faith and practice differ from ours; and

WHEREAS, as an expression of such hospitality and charity, United Methodists need to offer the pathways into membership for persons of other faith traditions with graciousness, consistency, and clarity; and

WHEREAS, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints presents itself as a faith tradition outside the parameters of historic, apostolic Christianity;

Therefore, we continue to recommend that United Methodist churches should receive persons from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints by offering the sacrament of Christian baptism following a period of catechesis (a time of intensive exploration and instruction in the Christian faith); and

Further, we continue to affirm Sacramental Faithfulness: Guidelines for Receiving People from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) as a study resource and guideline for pastors and congregations who seek to offer pathways to receive former Mormons who seek to become United Methodist; and

Further, we authorize the General Board of Discipleship to provide ongoing resources in accordance with Sacramental Faithfulness: Guidelines for Receiving People from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) to the Church to guide pastors and congregations who receive such persons who seek to become United Methodists in ways that are faithful to our United Methodist heritage.

ADOPTED 2000

REVISED AND READOPTED 2008 (#3149)

Resolution #16, 2000 Book of Resolutions

See Social Principles, ¶ 162.

From The Book of Resolutions of The United Methodist Church— 2008. Copyright © 2008 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Cobalt-70]

You are significantly overstating your case. Much of what you are getting at is already found in the BoM, though perhaps not as obvious as it is in later revelations. The Book of Ether, for instance, contains the myth of the primordial, divine light which is also a feature of what you term esoteric Judaism.. Also, certain of the distinctive teachings called "Nauvoo THeology," are in the Prophecy of Enoch.

If you are talking about Kabbalistic speculations on the meaning of the word "tsohar" (often translated as "window") in Gen. 6:16, then I guess it's possible that Smith was aware of that tradition in 1829. But I don't think that's likely, given that in his translation of the Bible, he used the word "window" in the point corresponding to Gen. 6:16.

But there is a much more mundane explanation, derived from magic rather than Kabbalah. Smith was fascinated by magic stones. He saw himself as a "seer," meaning that he had a clairvoyant ability with respect to such stones. He found his own stone in a well in 1822, and he evidently believed there were many others to be found in the Americas. The Book of Mormon is full of references to magic stones, and the story of Ether 3 is a sort of origin story for 18 of them.

As to the "Nauvoo theology" references in the book of Moses, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Saints Alive]

I don't think they care about LDS authority as much as they do LDS interpretation of the Bible. Protestants believe strongly in the priesthood of all believers, and I think you would find the same is true of Methodism. They reject LDS baptism because of the LDS rejection of traditional Christian doctrines, not because of priesthood authority.

Actually methodists believe in apostolic succession and priesthood authority, even though their claim to it is a little stretched. I don't think they place much emphasis in the priesthood of all believers doctrine.

[Ahab]

I don't think they care about LDS authority as much as they do LDS interpretation of the Bible.

Our interpretation is based on how it has been explained by those with God's authority to explain it. They accept their own interpretations which are inconsistent with how it has been correctly explained.

Protestants believe strongly in the priesthood of all believers, and I think you would find the same is true of Methodism.

We're believers. They just don't believe us when we tell them we believe what God wants us to believe.

They reject LDS baptism because of the LDS rejection of traditional Christian doctrines, not because of priesthood authority.

It has everything to do with priesthood authority. They think they have priesthood authority from God, and they think we don't.

I kinda doubt they'll ever figure out we really do, collectively.

[Bart Burk]

Our interpretation is based on how it has been explained by those with God's authority to explain it. They accept their own interpretations which are inconsistent with how it has been correctly explained.

We're believers. They just don't believe us when we tell them we believe what God wants us to believe.

It has everything to do with priesthood authority. They think they have priesthood authority from God, and they think we don't.

I kinda doubt they'll ever figure out we really do, collectively.

You don't seem to understand. Protestants don't give a whoop about priesthood authority. That's why they aren't Catholic.