Saints Alive Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote) What things was he talking about?
thesometimesaint Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Never heard that one. But I've heard that "A Methodist is just a Baptist that can read". Edited October 29, 2012 by thesometimesaint
lizrenowden Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I don't recall hearing that one - but I do recall, as a child, being told that one of the Wesley's (probably John but not sure - it was a long time ago when I was told it) apparently saying that the Methodist church wasn't the true church but it would do until the true church came along. I was only about maybe 8 when I heard this one and haven't been able to find anything to back it up - but someone else may know more about it. I will keep looking to see if I can find it anywhere.
sdc999 Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Never heard that one. But I've heard that "A Methodist is just a Baptist that can read".Well, I know the baptist won't speak to you in the liquor store and the mormon won't even make eye contact 1
Mark Beesley Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Well, I know the baptist won't speak to you in the liquor store and the mormon won't even make eye contact That's worth a chuckle.
thesometimesaint Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Well, I know the baptist won't speak to you in the liquor store and the mormon won't even make eye contact The way I heard it was never invite just one Mormon on a fishing trip. Otherwise they'll smoke all the cigarettes and drink all the booze. 2
Seraphim32 Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)What things was he talking about?He also had a similar sentiment about the Catholic faith.One of the people Father Alleman struck up a friendship with was the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Joseph Smith. Between 1840 and 1843 Nauvoo grew quickly to become a community of 20,000 people.[1] Many people on the Iowa side of the river feared the Mormons because they controlled the ferries that crossed the river (there were no bridges across the Mississippi yet), and they were rumored to accept outlaws from other parts of the country into their community.[1] Alleman cultivated a friendship with Smith. Smith on his own part respected Alleman’s leadership and linguistic abilities. He used the priest as a German and French translator. Alleman was granted access to Smith’s barge to cross the river, and space in the Mormon Temple where he and other priests could baptize their own people. The Mormon’s would also bring Alleman to a sick parishioner once they helped him cross the river.[4] A Mormon building was used for Mass, and rock was quarried from the Mormon quarries for the second St. Joseph Church.[1] Joseph Smith at one time told Alleman that next to the Latter Day Saints, Catholicism was the best religion. "For the priests attend to their people faithfully and mind their own business, whereas the other preachers are continually bothering the Latter Day Saints." Father Alleman responded with thanks, saying "There was a diversity of opinion on that subject."Peterson, Robin. "Catholic Church, McDonough County". McDonough County ILGenWeb. Retrieved 2010-06-16
Mark Beesley Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)What things was he talking about?I think we would need to see the quote and its source so we can get a more complete context, i.e. who was he talking to, what was the event, who recorded the event, what was the full subject matters, etc.
ERayR Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)What things was he talking about?Where did that come from? In over 60 years I have never heard that.
RobertAC Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Seraphim's understanding is the same as my own. I understood that Joseph Smith believed that the keys of the priesthood were taken from the RCC.
Mark Beesley Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Seraphim's understanding is the same as my own. I understood that Joseph Smith believed that the keys of the priesthood were taken from the RCC.I don't know if Joseph Smith ever expressed that opinion. One would have to go back and find the point in history where someone assumed a leadership role without the requisite laying on of hands by those in authority. That probably took place long before the Roman Catholic Church arose from the ashes of Constantine's manipulations. What we do know is that a restoration was necessary, otherwise there would have been no need for John the Baptist and Peter, James and John to come to Joseph as resurrected beings to lay their hands on his head and ordain him.
Saints Alive Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=xbRpTRU_utE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxbRpTRU_utEHere is one source, not sure where he got it from but would be interesting to see it.
Cobalt-70 Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)What things was he talking about?It is because the Book of Mormon is almost a Methodist tract. If we still took the Book of Mormon seriously as a doctrinal treatise, there would be relatively little to distinguish us, except for a little Churches of Christ theology and magic thrown in. But the Book of Mormon pre-dates the later infusions of universalism, esoteric Judaism, Freemasonry, and Joseph Smith's brilliant later revelations, that make Mormonism what it is today, which is now quite different from Methodism. But even still, I think we have much more in common, doctrinally, with Methodism than we do with any of the other Christian denominations.
Saints Alive Posted October 29, 2012 Author Posted October 29, 2012 If the quote is pre-Kirkland that would make a lot of sense
MiserereNobis Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I don't know if Joseph Smith ever expressed that opinion. One would have to go back and find the point in history where someone assumed a leadership role without the requisite laying on of hands by those in authority.Is that your view of the apostasy? I've heard so many different views of what constituted the apostasy, but this is the first time on the board that I heard that it was caused by an invalid (or non-existent) ordination.That probably took place long before the Roman Catholic Church arose from the ashes of Constantine's manipulations.Hey now, we were around prior to Constantine. We were just hanging out in the catacombs and getting tossed to the lions
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 Well, I know the baptist won't speak to you in the liquor store and the mormon won't even make eye contact Yeah, like in elevators. You're supposed to observe a moment of silence.
Ahab Posted October 29, 2012 Posted October 29, 2012 I can look up the exact quote if anyone would prefer but what did Joseph Smith mean when he said something to the effect: "Methodist are the most correct, if they would only change a few thing they could take over the world" (not an exact quote)What things was he talking about?What some people don't realize is that Joseph had and often displayed a sense of humor.
Saints Alive Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 What some people don't realize is that Joseph had and often displayed a sense of humor. So are you saying the quote was sarcastic?
treeface Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Not the exact quote, but an indication of pre-first-vision Joseph's views towards the Methodists:"...In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them..." - Joseph Smith, History, verse 8I think Emma was a Methodist. I found an online paper alleging that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist church in 1828. Google: Joseph Smith Methodist 1828
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Heck, we're practically universalists anyway. We don't come to take away the truths others have, only add."Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?""In reality and essence we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may. We believe in the great Elohim who sits enthroned in yonder heavens; so do the Presbyterians.""If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No! I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst."Why is it this babbler gains so many followers and retains them?"Because I possess the principle of love. All I can offer the world is a good heart and a good hand. Mormons can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for a Mormon; if it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon, I am bold to declare before heaven that I am just as ready to die for a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or any other denomination.""The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.""The old Catholic Church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, 'I am the true tree, and you are corrupt.' If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it?""While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ (Matthew 5:45.) He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, ‘according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,’ or whether these deeds were done in England [Anglicans?]. America [Native North & South Americans, and the Great Spirit?], Spain [Sephardic Jews and the Moors?], Turkey [Hittites and other Indo-Europeans?], or India [Hinduism and Buddhism?]. He will judge them, ‘not according to what they have not, but according to what they have’; those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law.""Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on.""It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul - civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race. [...] And if by the principles of truth I succeed in uniting men of all denominations in the bonds of love, shall I not have obtained a good object?"“All of them [Creeds] have some truth”, and “it does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” In regards to Masonry, "many things are perfect." "If any of ye lack Wisdom, let him ask of God, who upbraideth not, but giveth to all men liberally." “A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.”"I do not dwell upon your faults, and you shall not upon mine. Charity, which is love, covereth a multitude of sins, and I have often covered up all the faults among you; but the prettiest thing is to have no faults at all. We should cultivate a meek, quiet and peaceable spirit. Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.” Edited October 30, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 1
Saints Alive Posted October 30, 2012 Author Posted October 30, 2012 Kirtland... it's Kirtland.I blame spellcheck
Seraphim32 Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Hey now, we were around prior to Constantine. We were just hanging out in the catacombs and getting tossed to the lions :good:Well said, friend.
Buzzard Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 Not that his opinion matters more than Joseph's, but my father, who served a mission in CA and AZ back in the 50's, said the hardest to convert were the 7th day Adventists, he said they were so close to the truth on a lot of things it was hard for them to make the remaining leap. I served among the most devout secularists in Europe, the French, so I don't have a germane opinion on the subject.
volgadon Posted October 30, 2012 Posted October 30, 2012 But the Book of Mormon pre-dates the later infusions of universalism, esoteric Judaism, Freemasonry, and Joseph Smith's brilliant later revelations, that make Mormonism what it is today,You are significantly overstating your case. Much of what you are getting at is already found in the BoM, though perhaps not as obvious as it is in later revelations. The Book of Ether, for instance, contains the myth of the primordial, divine light which is also a feature of what you term esoteric Judaism.. Also, certain of the distinctive teachings called "Nauvoo THeology," are in the Prophecy of Enoch. 2
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