Music For Marriage Equality Campaign

[Lamanite]

I would love to hear Elder Jensen speak in General Conference! I believe he is such a great alley for gay & disillusioned LDS folks!

[california boy]

Elder Jensen was wonderful in the PBS documentary..

[media=]http://youtu.be/E_wT_iXMyY4

I just think there is often a knee jerk response by some of us to immediately assign a negative/threating motive to anything created by the LGBT community. Maybe that response is warranted most of the time. But sometimes I think the LGBT community reaches out for the sole purpose of building bridges of love and understanding. Maybe I'm naive but I think this video, although associated with a political group, has that as a primary purpose.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I think it is important to remember that the message of equality and love (gay propaganda) does not all come from the LGBT community. Often this message of love and tolerance comes from the straight community who believe it is morally wrong to discriminage against the gay community. This song is an example of that. It came from a straight man that felt it was immoral to discriminate. This is what he said.

This song, which I wrote in April, is a response to what I have observed and experienced, and is also an act of personal accountability. It was not easy to write, and I struggled with how I, as a straight male, could genuinely speak upon this issue.

Initially, I tried writing from the perspective of a gay, bullied kid, but after getting some feedback, I felt it wasn’t my story to tell. What I do know, and where I wrote from, is my own perspective growing up in a culture where “that’s gay” was commonplace, with a huge stigma on those who identified and were perceived as gay.

Growing up in the Catholic Church, I saw first-hand how easily religion became a platform for hate and prejudice. Those who “believed” were excused from their own judgments, bypassing the stark issue of basic civil rights.

The majority of Americans believe that gay couples should be allowed to marry. They feel marriage will strengthen those families like it does for your families. .

[Bikeemikey]

This is well poisoning using conjecture and propped up straw men. In short, it is gay propaganda.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hey there Wade... Would you be able to elaborate on this a little more.

My thesis on this topic is simple. Feel to to highlight how it fits your accusation above.

US LDS, more than any other group in the US, have a divine belief in the constitution and many also have the belief that that the constitution is being/going to be principles the Constitution will destroyed/hang by a thread.

As such, whenever LDS engage in political debate/engagement we seem to always bring it back to protecting the constitution. Most Mormons I have talked with on prop 8 talk about how constitutional values are being eroded by the courts siding against the "will of the people".

A few basic assumptions:

The purpose of the Supreme Court is to ensure the constitution is enacted..

They only time the Supreme Court would rule against the will of the people is of the people are demanding unconstitutional changes.

Such changes would be against the fabric of freedom.

If prop 8 is found by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional the LDS have a choice, they will have to admit they were/are fighting against freedom and the constitution, or they will create an understanding of the US legal context that says the Supreme Court is "fallen".

How is this straw man or gay propaganda? Or did I miss understand your response?

Edited October 4, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[CV75]

How could you isolate or create a message of love and understanding that promotes love and acceptance of homosexuals without crossing over into the political realm? Would a message like that be harmful in anyway to the Church's teachings regarding the family?

By using positive lyrics about all people and their commonalities, and that are effective in drawing people together, not lyrics that rub noses in accusations of how pepole pick each other apart on specific differences (which to be perfectly fair, would require equally promoted songs on thousands of themes).

[wenglund]

Perfect.

How could you isolate or create a message of love and understanding that promotes love and acceptance of homosexuals without crossing over into the political realm? Would a message like that be harmful in anyway to the Church's teachings regarding the family?

Big UP! Lamanite

You do so in the same way you would with adulterer or idolaters or coveters or anyone else with a propensity towards and who may have committed certain sins, and this by directing messages of love and acceptance to the person as a child of God, and against the sin.

On the other hand, gay propaganda would have us love and accept the sin, which, from the perspective of the gospel of Christ, acts against the person as a child of God.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lamanite]

This is what he said. .

Thank you for that post. I hadn't read that. Good stuff.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

You do so in the same way you would with adulterer or idolaters or coveters or anyone else with a propensity towards and who may have committed certain sins, and this by directing messages of love and acceptance to the person as a child of God, and against the sin.

On the other hand, gay propaganda would have us love and accept the sin, which, from the perspective of the gospel of Christ, acts against the person as a child of God.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As a mental exercise, it's difficult for me to create some type of statement (written, video, song, poem...) that engenders love and understanding for individuals without also making my statement to some degree or another one that also condones behaviors I don't agree with. Ironically, when teaching my daughters I am able to create a message with clear distinctions between sin and sinner and what our responsibilities are to them. But I'm not sure that a public statement that mirrors what I teach at home would play very well in public.

Using this video as an example for why this type of stuff may be harmful to our children let's concede that I am able to consume this type of media using critical thinking skills to compare its various components to my beliefs and values. Where things match up I accept and celebrate commonalities. Where things don't match up so well I just disregard. And when appropriate, I adopt new sensibilities and compassionate outlooks.

Can kids do what I just described? Probably not until late teens or even early twenties. How do you guys suggest we teach children responsible/smart media consumption.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[wenglund]

Hey there Wade... Would you be able to elaborate on this a little more.

My thesis on this topic is simple. Feel to to highlight how it fits your accusation above.

US LDS, more than any other group in the US, have a divine belief in the constitution and many also have the belief that that the constitution is being/going to be principles the Constitution will destroyed/hang by a thread.

As such, whenever LDS engage in political debate/engagement we seem to always bring it back to protecting the constitution. Most Mormons I have talked with on prop 8 talk about how constitutional values are being eroded by the courts siding against the "will of the people".

A few basic assumptions:

The purpose of the Supreme Court is to ensure the constitution is enacted..

They only time the Supreme Court would rule against the will of the people is of the people are demanding unconstitutional changes.

Such changes would be against the fabric of freedom.

If prop 8 is found by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional the LDS have a choice, they will have to admit they were/are fighting against freedom and the constitution, or they will create an understanding of the US legal context that says the Supreme Court is "fallen".

How is this straw man or gay propaganda? Or did I miss understand your response?

To minimize my contrabution to this thread derailment, let me simply and briefly state that were the Supreme Court to eventually rule as you suppose (which is debatable), I for one wouldn't view things in the overly narrow and bifurcate way that you pigeon-holed not just LDS supporters of Prop 8, but Prop 8 supporters in general. Even before the fact, you are putting words into my mouth that I would not say. This violates the conventions of critical thought in a number of ways. Logic and courtesy would advise waiting to see what the Supreme Court does and then let each side speak for themselves.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

As a mental exercise, it's difficult for me to create some type of statement (written, video, song, poem...) that engenders love and understanding for individuals without also making my statement to some degree or another one that also condones behaviors I don't agree with.

Would you be struggling as much with this were the video to have invited love and understanding and acceptance of a man who is romantically/sexually attracted to his mother or his daughter?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lamanite]

Would you be struggling as much with this were the video to have invited love and understanding and acceptance of a man who is romantically/sexually attracted to his mother or his daughter?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Honestly, no. what do you make of that?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Skylla]

This is not a prop 8 debate.

Skylla

[Lamanite]

This is not a prop 8 debate.

Skylla

thank you

[CV75]

Can kids do what I just described? Probably not until late teens or even early twenties. How do you guys suggest we teach children responsible/smart media consumption.

I think it depends on the kid. As for teaching them, here's an Ensign article that's only 25 yeard old but still has some good pointers

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/01/helping-children-understand-the-medias-influence

I think ongoing discussion / communication is number one, and especially when sharing media consumption to help them observe what is going on superficailly and subliminally. My kids used to be able to spot some interesting subtleties in the pre-teen and early teen years.

I had a conversation recently with ourson, who now has a family of his own, about how people seem to be slipping away from being able to relate to and deal with a very physical world and are dependent on media to teh extent that they are easily swayed by media messages manipulated by those who can and do deal very effectively with a physical world.

[Bikeemikey]

To minimize my contrabution to this thread derailment, let me simply and briefly state that were the Supreme Court to eventually rule as you suppose (which is debatable), I for one wouldn't view things in the overly narrow and bifurcate way that you pigeon-holed not just LDS supporters of Prop 8, but Prop 8 supporters in general. Even before the fact, you are putting words into my mouth that I would not say. This violates the conventions of critical thought in a number of ways. Logic and courtesy would advise waiting to see what the Supreme Court does and then let each side speak for themselves.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I am also not interested in derailing this thread - I will create a new one and would be really interested in hearing your feedback on tacking the problems potentially created for by a Supreme court ruling against Prop 8. Your contribution would be welcome.

Cheers.

[wenglund]

Honestly, no. what do you make of that?

With all due respect and brotherly concern, I think it may suggest that your thinking on homosexual issues has been dysfunctionally clouded by the gay agenda and pop culture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Bikeemikey]

To minimize my contrabution to this thread derailment, let me simply and briefly state that were the Supreme Court to eventually rule as you suppose (which is debatable), I for one wouldn't view things in the overly narrow and bifurcate way that you pigeon-holed not just LDS supporters of Prop 8, but Prop 8 supporters in general. Even before the fact, you are putting words into my mouth that I would not say. This violates the conventions of critical thought in a number of ways. Logic and courtesy would advise waiting to see what the Supreme Court does and then let each side speak for themselves.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lamanite]

With all due respect and brotherly concern, I think it may suggest that your thinking on homosexual issues has been dysfunctionally clouded by the gay agenda and pop culture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I thought that was where you were headed. It's a very real possibility considering the music and media I expose myself to. This is something worthy of honest introspection. Thanks brutha!

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

Wade, I'm struggling with the parallel you've drawn between an individuals with incestuous desires and those who have SSA. Do you really think the parallel is valid? Do you think that in some cases SSA is genetic condition? Do you also think incestuous attractions are genetic conditions?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[wenglund]

Wade, I'm struggling with the parallel you've drawn between an individuals with incestuous desires and those who have SSA. Do you really think the parallel is valid?

Yes, I believe the parallels are quite valid in the limited sense I drew them. Both are desires or propensities to commit sin.

Do you think that in some cases SSA is genetic condition? Do you also think incestuous attractions are genetic conditions? Big UP! Lamanite

I don't know, nor does it matter to the point I was making. The parallels I drew weren't intended, and need not speak to, the open debates about where various propensity to sin may originate (nature or nurture), because it isn't relevant to my point. The parallels weren't about origins of propensities, but about the propensities themselves, and more particularly with the sins resulting from the propensities.

And, as with the Church, my concern isn't so much with the propensity, but with the resulting sins.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

And, as with the Church, my concern isn't so much with the propensity, but with the resulting sins.

For example, popular love songs about "if it feels so good how could it be wrong" can encourage people's propensity for heterosexual adultery, premarital sex, etc. Except those don't seem to go political as far as I can remember.

[wenglund]

For example, popular love songs about "if it feels so good how could it be wrong" can encourage people's propensity for heterosexual adultery, premarital sex, etc. Except those don't seem to go political as far as I can remember.

I came of age during the so-called sexual revolution of the 70's when those things did go political under the banner of "free love." Fortunately, to some extent people have since come to their senses. Let's hope the same goes for the homosexual revolution.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lamanite]

Yes, I believe the parallels are quite valid in the limited sense I drew them. Both are desires or propensities to commit sin.

I don't know, nor does it matter to the point I was making. The parallels I drew weren't intended, and need not speak to, the open debates about where various propensity to sin may originate (nature or nurture), because it isn't relevant to my point. The parallels weren't about origins of propensities, but about the propensities themselves, and more particularly with the sins resulting from the propensities.

And, as with the Church, my concern isn't so much with the propensity, but with the resulting sins.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I understand. I'm only trying to identify the source of my tolerance for Same Sex Marriage. Is it that I feel compassion because I believe it's a genetic condition or is my tolerance and compassion a result of slick marketing by gays.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Calm]

Few positions are the result of only one influence.

[CV75]

I understand. I'm only trying to identify the source of my tolerance for Same Sex Marriage. Is it that I feel compassion because I believe it's a genetic condition or is my tolerance and compassion a result of slick marketing by gays.

Hmmm... (removes spectacles, gestures with them, phony Austrian accent) What things are you intolerant of? That might offer some insight.

[Lamanite]

Few positions are the result of only one influence.

If I remove the influence gay propaganda has had on me would I still be so willing to accept them and their lifestyle? Not sure. Is it even possible to undo what's been done? Maybe.

Big UP!

Lamanite