An Evangelical'S Definition Of Cult: How Normative Is It?

[Vance]

Ok, So . . .

Are you concerned about the Evangelical or Protestant use of the term "apostasy" to characterize the Roman Catholic Church?

Still no response.

[Scott Lloyd]

My understanding of the word "cult" from my high school history teacher is that it simply means a "small religion." From my later encounters with anthropologists, archeologists, and historians, it seems that the word is operationally used in this non-judgmental context to describe ancient religion. Using this definition, historians can point out that, at one time, Christianity was a cult.

Which is the point I started from. It is Evangelicals who popularized it as a term of disparagement.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Depending on usage, it still is:

http://dictionary.re...browse/cult?s=t

So all relgions (not limited to solely) are part of or can be called a cult. When people told me I was part of a cult, on my mission they generally were actling like we were part of a Jim Jones movment or something like it. Where we were all brain washed into the church. It was meant as a term of disparagement.

[DavidB]

There is a secular defintion of cult - which encompassess all religions,

And there is religious definition of cult, which conveniently excludes traditional protestant religions.

[Mudcat]

My question is this: Can anyone here cite a normative source that gives cult the esoteric definition that Zacharias has given it?

I can't. It's a term that seems to have a become a flippant ad hom for a related belief system that really grates on you for some reason and it seems you're free to self define the term.

That being said, I do like the non-web accessible and entirely unpublished Mudcat's Inexhaustible Dictionary of Terms as it defines "cult".

Cult -

phonetics - (C uuu l t) -pronounced best in English with a thick Russian accent...but an Australian accent will suffice in a pinch

1. A church that doesn't have any money.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Mudcat

[Damien the Leper]

I saw that Maklelan mentioned the term cultus.

In a Mormon Matters podcast with Dan Wotherspoon, Joanna Brooks and Blair Hodges, Jared Anderson mentioned the full term cultus deorum.

At the time, I was unfamiliar with the term until I researched it and found that it meant "cultivation of the gods". I am curious to know when this definition shifted into the monstrosity that it is today.

Am I incorrect to assume that the contemporary usage and definition of the term cult is in fact a bastardization of its origin and history and is also agenda bent?

[volgadon]

I can't. It's a term that seems to have a become a flippant ad hom for a related belief system that really grates on you for some reason and it seems you're free to self define the term.

That being said, I do like the non-web accessible and entirely unpublished Mudcat's Inexhaustible Dictionary of Terms as it defines "cult".

Used in such Russian catch phrases as the late, great, fictional Ostap Bender's "don't turn food into a cult!"

[Rob Bowman]

USU78,

You wrote:

This is silly. Justifying the provocative and wrongheaded usage by others because they've been doing it for longer than most Mormons have realized until this thread does not make the usage any less provocative and wrongheaded.

Huh?

My argument has nothing to do with evangelicals using a word longer than others. I was responding to maklelan's false claim that evangelicals only use the term in reference to Mormonism because of the associations it has (in the secular media) with such groups as Jonestown. The fact that evangelicals used the term without those associations is the point, supported by the fact that they were using it before such associations were ever made with the word.

You wrote:

Evie Protestants, in their ignorance, used to claim Mormons had horns [some even still make this claim]. The claim goes back to the XIXth Century, if I'm not misinformed. Long-time usage does not make the insupportable supportable.

I'll confess to my ignorance on this one. CFR that evangelical Protestants ever used to claim that Mormons had horns. CFR that some are currently make this claim.

[Calm]

I'll confess to my ignorance on this one. CFR that evangelical Protestants ever used to claim that Mormons had horns. CFR that some are currently make this claim.

I had a neighbour, a young protestant girl, ask me if my dad had horns. She must have heard it from somewhere. You've never heard that one? Very surprising, I thought it was up there with "How many wives does your dad have?"

[Vance]

I'll confess to my ignorance on this one. CFR that evangelical Protestants ever used to claim that Mormons had horns. CFR that some are currently make this claim.

WOW!!!!

You are not "in the loop" as much as I thought you were.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mormons+have+horns&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Edited September 13, 2012 by Vance

[Anakin7]

I went to a LDS mid singles dance years ago and 2 LDS singles had 2 Ev friends with them that heard that Mormons grew horns/tail at midnight. So the Ev couple saw the truth for themselves over this claim after the midnight hour. This reminds me of the Ed Decker tactics he used years ago.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited September 13, 2012 by Anakin7

[Rob Bowman]

calmoriah,

You wrote:

I had a neighbour, a young protestant girl, ask me if my dad had horns. She must have heard it from somewhere. You've never heard that one? Very surprising, I thought it was up there with "How many wives does your dad have?"

While I certainly cannot question your story, I was looking for a reference documenting that evangelicals have actually claimed that Mormons have horns. Anecdotal evidence about children asking if they do is not fair evidence for making the kind of generalized statement that USU78 made.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Your Google search turns up Mormon complaints about critics saying they have horns, not examples of evangelicals themselves saying this.

WOW!!!!

You are not "in the loop" as much as I thought you were.

https://www.google.c...lient=firefox-a

[Vance]

Vance,

Your Google search turns up Mormon complaints about critics saying they have horns, not examples of evangelicals themselves saying this.

LOL!!!!

So, evangelicals aren't numbered among the group known as "critics"?

:rofl:

I guess you missed this from an evangelical.

From an "epistemological" point of view, evangelicals are right to fear that Mormons wear horns, pretty long ones too, bigger than those of a Yukon moose.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Vance

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You're being obtuse. The claim for which I issued a CFR was that evangelicals actually used to believe that Mormons have horns -- literal horns, of course -- and that some still do. If an isolated individual evangelical denies that Mormons have "horns" but then uses the language rhetorically to make a very different point about Mormon epistemology (!) this doesn't even begin to meet my CFR.

Did you miss the part where the individual says, "Mormons certainly don’t have horns if this is meant in a personal sense. Most Mormons I know are nice and unthreatening, and even conservative. There’s nothing about them at all to suggest they are a robotic, brainwashed cult-like fans of Hannah Montana…"

No, of course you didn't miss it. You just ignored it because you were only interested in the part that fit your anti-evangelical narrative.

[Vance]

Vance,

You're being obtuse. The claim for which I issued a CFR was that evangelicals actually used to believe that Mormons have horns -- literal horns, of course -- and that some still do. If an isolated individual evangelical denies that Mormons have "horns" but then uses the language rhetorically to make a very different point about Mormon epistemology (!) this doesn't even begin to meet my CFR.

The fact that that response exists is prima facie evidence that evangelicals have believed such drivel.

If they had never believed it, why even mention it?

Did you miss the part where the individual says, "Mormons certainly don’t have horns if this is meant in a personal sense. Most Mormons I know are nice and unthreatening, and even conservative. There’s nothing about them at all to suggest they are a robotic, brainwashed cult-like fans of Hannah Montana…"

Rather irrelevant. The fact that evangelicals are starting to understand how stupid this is doesn't mean that they didn't believe it at some point.

Again, the very existence of this is prima facie evidence that evangelicals have believed it and asked it.

No, of course you didn't miss it. You just ignored it because you were only interested in the part that fit your anti-evangelical narrative.

And you are being silly.

All of the responses to the question are because of the question in the first place. The question was coming from evangelicals as well as other..

Besides, we both know that only an ignorant person would believe such a silly thing in the first place, so why would you expect to find written documentation?

Edited September 13, 2012 by Vance

[Scott Lloyd]

Besides, we both know that only an ignorant person would believe such a silly thing in the first place, so why would you expect to find written documentation?

Considering some of the outlandish assertions about Mormons by Evangelicals that have been documented (think Ed Decker and "The Godmakers"), it's not that difficult to conceive that in the past some actually did harbor this stupid notion.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

After claiming to have provided written documentation proving that evangelicals have believed that Mormons have horns, you conclude:

Besides, we both know that only an ignorant person would believe such a silly thing in the first place, so why would you expect to find written documentation?

Hmmm....

It is inconsistent for you to claim to have provided written documentation for your criticism of evangelicals and also excuse the lack of such documentation by claiming that one would not expect to find any. Furthermore, the claim that the lack of written documentation results from the fact that only ignorant people would say such a thing ignores the fact that ignorant people express their views in writing all the time. The Internet has made it astonishingly easy to find ignorant people saying stupid things. Yet you have not come up with even one example of a self-identified evangelical seriously asserting that Mormons actually have horns.

Setting aside the incoherence of your argument, your concluding excuse for the lack of written documentation reminds me of similar explanations defenders of other unprovable claims have given. Here's an example:

"Of course we can't produce physical evidence that the federal government is hiding extraterrestrials in Area 51. It's the government. They can hide anything."

Finally, the claim for which I issued a CFR was the claim that evangelicals generally held to this belief about Mormons having horns as well as the claim that "some" evangelicals "still" believe it. Nothing anyone has said here even touches this point.

The CFR remains unanswered so far.

[Rob Bowman]

Scott,

You wrote:

Considering some of the outlandish assertions about Mormons by Evangelicals that have been documented (think Ed Decker and "The Godmakers"), it's not that difficult to conceive that in the past some actually did harbor this stupid notion.

This argument will bite you back, sir. I have seen some outlandish assertions about evangelicals by Mormons. Not only can I document them, I have documented them from the LDS Church's official website. But this fact would not justify me claiming without solid evidence that "Mormons believe X about evangelicals" even if I can produce anecdotes from a few evangelicals who report hearing Mormons say something like it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott,

You wrote:

This argument will bite you back, sir. I have seen some outlandish assertions about evangelicals by Mormons. Not only can I document them, I have documented them from the LDS Church's official website. But this fact would not justify me claiming without solid evidence that "Mormons believe X about evangelicals" even if I can produce anecdotes from a few evangelicals who report hearing Mormons say something like it.

Whatever you claim to have found in the official Church website, I doubt it even approaches the calumny of which Decker and cronies are guilty. Rather than suffer the tedium of trying to itemize his accusations here, I'll just refer folks to this review by Daniel Peterson.

And it hardly needs pointing out that Decker has enjoyed substantial popularity among Evangelicals for quite a while now.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Vance]

Ok, So . . .

Are you concerned about the Evangelical or Protestant use of the term "apostasy" to characterize the Roman Catholic Church?

Still no response.

[Vance]

I'll confess to my ignorance on this one. CFR that evangelical Protestants ever used to claim that Mormons had horns. CFR that some are currently make this claim.

So, the goal posts have moved to,

I was looking for a reference documenting that evangelicals have actually claimed that Mormons have horns.

And from there to,

. . . provided written documentation . . .

But, despite your moving of the goal posts, your CFR has been addressed.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Vance

[Vance]

Vance,

After claiming to have provided written documentation proving that evangelicals have believed that Mormons have horns, you conclude:

I didn't just CLAIM it. I DID it.

The fact that the majority of evangelicals that would believe such foolishness are too ignorant to write about it is not my problem.

You asked for evidence, and evidence has been provided.

[Calm]

An evangelical believes it's a big enough myth to refute it: http://www.equippingchristians.com/Myths-About-Mormons.php

A more academic approach discussing the origin: http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormon-horns-4o7-should-have-grown-wings/

[zerinus]

Let's look at some definitions of the word cult in recognized, non-evangelical reference works:

• American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, definition #1: "a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect."
  
• Merriam-Webster Dictionary, definition #3: "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents."
  
• Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions: "CULT, collective veneration or worship. In the West, cults are usually thought of as groups that have deviated from normative religions."
  

These definitions correspond quite well to the way evangelicals typically use the word when they refer to the LDS Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity School of Christianity, and other such groups as "cults." The term in this context expresses the view that such groups have deviated from the normative form of Christianity, that they teach false versions of the Christian religion, and that they are theologically unorthodox. One may not like the word, and one may of course disagree with the theological perspective from which evangelicals make their assessment of such groups, but the use of the term cult in this way is validated by some credible reference works.

The Protestantism, and especially the Evangelical variety of it, are the biggest cults of all.

Edited September 14, 2012 by zerinus