ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I hadn't given it too much thought, honestly. There is no other shoe, though the Romney Tax Return hack did get me thinking.I think our government relies on our money to accomplish good things, but also uses it to accomplish very, very bad things.When I was living in Belgium, I noticed that the money is allocated the opposite of what we have in the US. Most of your money goes to the local level, then to the regional, then to the federal, then a tiny piece goes to the King. In the US, most of our money goes to the federal level, which seems crazy after having experienced it the other way. I was much less bothered by paying 50% when I could see everyday how the money was helping my community and the people around me.For a country that is so concerned about preventing the termination of human life in the realm of abortion, I find it hugely hypocritical that we don't think twice about killing innocent women and children overseas. If I could, I would not allow any of my tax money to go towards such efforts. Or towards covering up police brutality or unnecessarily spying on our own citizens. In general, our money pays for a lot of corruption and a lot of immorality.On the other hand, there are people that really and truly need help. If I knew that my money was being used wisely to help people in need, I would not mind paying a great deal more in taxes. If I knew that money was being used to develop and implement free (or as close as possible) water and power for the private citizens of our country, or even Africa, I'd be okay with paying extra.This is why I say that cheating a little is okay, in my book. As an individual, we all cheat in our favor in a million different ways in every system we participate in. It is human nature. In the big picture, as individuals, we aren't harming anyone by withholding a little bit, and, if you are genuinely struggling, I don't see that you should bare the burden of murdering people overseas so that large corporations can make money and not pay taxes on it.If, however, you are a large entity, your intentional cheat is causing the problems that are directly contribute to the degradation of the quality of life of honest, hard-working people... poverty, lack of social programs, record wealth inequality, etc... then I think that is pretty indefensible. In general, I feel that companies aren't people, and they shouldn't be treated like they have hunger and depression and such. Just my opinion.I wasn't trying to set anyone up to make a greater argument. I was genuinely curious how Mormons feel about it. The Romney tax stuff in the news just got me thinking, is all. I don't have an opinion on the forgiveness loophole, the hack, or the lack of showing the returns, himself. I am curious to see how it all shakes out, though.So selective cheating is alright as long as it fits your agenda? Is this correct? What about my agenda? Especially in areas where we differ. Can you see that your way leads to anarchy and chaos?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I hired an accountant to tell me what is moral or immoral in terms of my taxes. I have now granted unto him all of my free agency in respect to the United States Tax Code.I do think it is VERY moral that he will be saving me over $15,000 this year.I am going to say that what you have done is not called cheating but being smart.Some might not know the difference.
Kenngo1969 Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Is paying taxes when you know some of them are being used for immoral purposes moral?Immoral to whom? As the term is defined in U.S. politics, I am rather conservative (socially and fiscally). I am acutely aware that nothing is harder to kill than a government program. Many such programs were intended as temporary measures, yet continue, out of simple inertia, long past the fulfillment of the purposes for which they were established. Yet as much as I might disagree with some of the uses to which the taxes I pay may be put, I pay them as part of the price necessary to live in the society to which I belong. As unlikely as it is, there's still a chance that if enough people disagree with their tax dollars being put to a particular purpose, the law can be changed to reflect that sentiment.
caudicus Posted September 6, 2012 Author Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) So selective cheating is alright as long as it fits your agenda? Is this correct? What about my agenda? Especially in areas where we differ. Can you see that your way leads to anarchy and chaos?If your agenda is okay with killing people, then your agenda is the one that is leading to anarchy and chaos. If so, I hope you have already picked up a rifle and done, at least, four years.I'm saying it is hard to justify handing over the majority of my tax money to fund an endless war that is designed specifically to make more money for tax cheats and create a larger wealth-inequality gap. I have a huge problem with that. Whatever people's take on healthcare or any other expense that some consider "hand-outs," the truth is that we can afford it if we stop spending so much on our military and "security" measures that, ultimately, result in the loss of personal liberty for everyone in our country. The human cost of this type of spending is staggering. I find anyone who supports it, ideologically, to have a flawed set of morals. I have even more criticism of those who support it, ideologically, and don't go sign up at their local recruiter.So, while we may differ on the details, I think most people can agree that killing people and loss of personal liberty are bad things. Why should we spend money on these things?I wasn't actually proposing a system, either. I was merely sharing undeveloped thoughts on the system, as it currently exists. Nearly everyone agrees that it is unfair, but few people ever propose a solution and fewer still try to see any kind of solution implemented. Personally, I think we need a lot more transparency of government, transparency of corporations and more privacy for individuals. I do what little I can to these ends. Ultimately, we are the government, we are these corporations and we vote everyday with every dollar we spend.I try to vote/spend in a moral manner, but it is not always easy to do. Edited September 6, 2012 by caudicus
Kenngo1969 Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop...Is Caudicus wanting to get a temple recommend but wonders if he should file an amended return?or is this a ramp up to a scathing denunciation of Mitt Romney's overseas tax sheltersor is this an indictment of Geoffry Imelt's tax avoidance practices at GEor does Caudicus know of a temple recommend holder who took too many deductions last year?Most of Governor Romney's assets are held in a blind trust. I hope (and trust ... pun intended? ) that he has a terrific trustee and a terrific accountant. Because of that, I wonder how much of his finances are like a black box: he knows what goes in in terms of assets, and he knows what comes out in terms of dividends, but he's probably not all that aware (to say the least) of what happens in that middle step (hence, the term "blind" trust.) 1
Danzo Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 As a member of the tax court bar, I think I can weigh in here.Cheating on taxes (as defined as lying on a tax return) is always immoral.Getting it wrong because you don't understand the Internal Revenue Code is inevitable.Taking advantage of the tax code to pay less taxes (without lying) is fine. Estimating expenses (when you do not have records to substantiate them) is also fine (Cohen Vs Commisioner)Most of the tax code is about manipulating people instead of raising revenue. 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 To cheat in any dealings with our fellow man is immoral. The TR Question doesn't distinguish between governments and individuals.
caudicus Posted September 6, 2012 Author Posted September 6, 2012 Should organizations be considered equal to individuals?
Danzo Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Should organizations be considered equal to individuals? If an Individual (within the organization) Cheats (Lies on the tax return) then the individuals are being immoral. If several individuals conspire to cheat, then they are being immoral.Since when is cheating moral?
Mansquatch Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Taxes are immoral,but they are legal.( as currently structured)The world lieth in sin
caudicus Posted September 6, 2012 Author Posted September 6, 2012 If an Individual (within the organization) Cheats (Lies on the tax return) then the individuals are being immoral. If several individuals conspire to cheat, then they are being immoral.Since when is cheating moral?Can you steal an apple from a tree? Can you steal a steak from a cow? Can an organization be harmed? It won't feel pain. It won't die in the same sense that the cow dies. It won't feel scorned. It won't detect injustice.
KevinG Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I hadn't given it too much thought, honestly. There is no other shoe, though the Romney Tax Return hack did get me thinking.I appreciate your candor and putting up with my cynicism. Thanks.
JarMan Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Article I section 816th Amendment. Income tax was unconstitutional before 1913. So is the income tax inspired or not?
KevinG Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Organizations are not entities without people. Somewhere in an organization people are making moral choices and those choices cannot be blamed on the organization. The system made me do it is as morally bankrupt as the devil made me do it. Sadly there are plenty of people powerful and weak alike who would excuse themselves from making moral decisions based on the fact that they are part of a larger system. I think many people who give up the control over their own decisions will be surprised when judgments come. 1
ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 If your agenda is okay with killing people, then your agenda is the one that is leading to anarchy and chaos. If so, I hope you have already picked up a rifle and done, at least, four years.No it is the lack of respect and disregard for law that leads to anarchy and chaos.PS Please don't make assumptions pertaining to anything I might believe without a valid reason. tI'm saying it is hard to justify handing over the majority of my tax money to fund an endless war that is designed specifically to make more money for tax cheats and create a larger wealth-inequality gap. I have a huge problem with that. Whatever people's take on healthcare or any other expense that some consider "hand-outs," the truth is that we can afford it if we stop spending so much on our military and "security" measures that, ultimately, result in the loss of personal liberty for everyone in our country. The human cost of this type of spending is staggering. I find anyone who supports it, ideologically, to have a flawed set of morals. I have even more criticism of those who support it, ideologically, and don't go sign up at their local recruiter.With the deficit spending I think one would be hard pressed to say this war is being waged with anything but borrowed money. Again unless you have some substantive evidence that those you are referring to are tax cheats then you are doing nothing but ranting. If you do have some substantive evidence call the IRS hotline and earn yourself a substantial reward.So, while we may differ on the details, I think most people can agree that killing people and loss of personal liberty are bad things. Why should we spend money on these things?No argument here. The reason we spend money on them is that those elected to spend that money see it as a worth while endeavor. If your want to change that get elected or get like minded people elected.I wasn't actually proposing a system, either. I was merely sharing undeveloped thoughts on the system, as it currently exists. Nearly everyone agrees that it is unfair, but few people ever propose a solution and fewer still try to see any kind of solution implemented. Personally, I think we need a lot more transparency of government, transparency of corporations and more privacy for individuals. I do what little I can to these ends. Ultimately, we are the government, we are these corporations and we vote everyday with every dollar we spend.AgreedI try to vote/spend in a moral manner, but it is not always easy to do.It is easy. We make it hard.
JarMan Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Nope but it was passed legally and became law.I'm questioning whether it's inspired not whether it's legal.
ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 As a member of the tax court bar, I think I can weigh in here.Cheating on taxes (as defined as lying on a tax return) is always immoral.Getting it wrong because you don't understand the Internal Revenue Code is inevitable.Taking advantage of the tax code to pay less taxes (without lying) is fine.Estimating expenses (when you do not have records to substantiate them) is also fine (Cohen Vs Commisioner)Most of the tax code is about manipulating people instead of raising revenue.On the last one it is fine as long as the IRS agrees.
ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Should organizations be considered equal to individuals?Legal organizations are considered as individuals.
caudicus Posted September 6, 2012 Author Posted September 6, 2012 Should they be? They may consist of individuals, but a number of studies and the news everyday shows us that every organization is subject to corruption. Isn't it in everyone's best interest to circumvent the corruption that seeks to gain influence in all of our lives?
ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Should they be? They may consist of individuals, but a number of studies and the news everyday shows us that every organization is subject to corruption. Isn't it in everyone's best interest to circumvent the corruption that seeks to gain influence in all of our lives?I don't know what you mean. What are you advocating?
thesometimesaint Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Organizations as well as people can/do commit immoral acts.ps; A cow would kick your butt if you tried to steal a stake from it. An apple tree can't lick you, but it will die if you take enough apples without replenishing the soil the apple tree grows in. Edited September 6, 2012 by thesometimesaint
KevinG Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Organizations are groups of people. Separating the influence and culpability of people from organizations is impossible. Believing that being a part of an organization dilutes moral responsibility is folly. 1
bluebell Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I hadn't given it too much thought, honestly. There is no other shoe, though the Romney Tax Return hack did get me thinking.I think our government relies on our money to accomplish good things, but also uses it to accomplish very, very bad things.When I was living in Belgium, I noticed that the money is allocated the opposite of what we have in the US. Most of your money goes to the local level, then to the regional, then to the federal, then a tiny piece goes to the King. In the US, most of our money goes to the federal level, which seems crazy after having experienced it the other way. I was much less bothered by paying 50% when I could see everyday how the money was helping my community and the people around me.What happened if the money given at the local level was not enough to pay for everything needed at the local level? Were certain areas poor and others wealthy?
ERayR Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 I'm questioning whether it's inspired not whether it's legal.As per my understanding. The original constitution and its form and provisions for amending were inspired. That does not say all changes to it are inspired. In fact there is a prophecy stating that the time will come when it will hang as if by a thread.
caudicus Posted September 7, 2012 Author Posted September 7, 2012 Organizations are groups of people. Separating the influence and culpability of people from organizations is impossible. Believing that being a part of an organization dilutes moral responsibility is folly.By that line of reasoning, are you not a murderer, since you belong to an organization that tortures and kills innocent people? What are you doing to not be a torturer and murderer?What happened if the money given at the local level was not enough to pay for everything needed at the local level? Were certain areas poor and others wealthy?That is a bone of contention in Belgium, since Flanders has been generating more wealth and Wallonia has been using more than their fair share. It is no different in the US, though. Coronado, California has a massive police department for it's population. They are utterly over policed and, last time I was there received a ticket for being parked more than 18" from the curb (I measured 20" on my back tire, my front tire was fine). They have an unfair allotment of resources when compared to every other city in the area. The difference between Coronado and Imperial Beach is far greater than any two places in Belgium.
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