Is Cheating On Your Taxes Immoral?

[thesometimesaint]

caudicus;

Pay the fine. What happens if the next time if someone hit your car when it is sticking out too far. They're still at fault and your still out a car.

BTW. Population wise California is one of the least policed states in the nation.

[KevinG]

By that line of reasoning, are you not a murderer, since you belong to an organization that tortures and kills innocent people? What are you doing to not be a torturer and murderer?

Leave the Boy Scouts out of this.

(seriously what in the heck are you talking about?)

[ERayR]

Leave the Boy Scouts out of this.

(seriously what in the heck are you talking about?)

I have asked that a couple of times. Seems to be on a rant, I suspect about war and the military but really don't know.

[thesometimesaint]

As long a there are people whom attack us there will be war. As long as there are people whom want to attack us there will be a military. What we spend on both is open to discuss.

[KevinG]

My son is a soldier. He does not torture or murder. Neither do his fellow soldiers.

In fact he is a medic who heals and saves lives - even those of the enemy.

If caudicus is implying my son and his fellow soliders are torturers and murderers he may want to avoid getting within range of me in the real world. I might be tempted to do something immoral and illegal.

[DavidB]

My son is a soldier. He does not torture or murder. Neither do his fellow soldiers.

In fact he is a medic who heals and saves lives - even those of the enemy.

If caudicus is implying my son and his fellow soliders are torturers and murderers he may want to avoid getting within range of me in the real world. ................................................

The worst thing you did was publish it on the interwebs, you should probably redact your statement

[DavidB]

As per my understanding. The original constitution and its form and provisions for amending were inspired. That does not say all changes to it are inspired. ...

Originally written was point. The Original Constitution gave Congress power to tax, thus, in my mind, making the 16th Amendment superfluous; but for the States, individually agreeing to it.

[ERayR]

Originally written was point. The Original Constitution gave Congress power to tax, thus, in my mind, making the 16th Amendment superfluous; but for the States, individually agreeing to it.

JarMan has some gotcha questions going about how much of the constitution we now have is inspired. Thus this post.

[caudicus]

caudicus;

Pay the fine. What happens if the next time if someone hit your car when it is sticking out too far. They're still at fault and your still out a car.

BTW. Population wise California is one of the least policed states in the nation.

I sent a check with a request for dismissal, since I drive a sports car where the door would have hit the curb if I was parked any closer. The picture I included also showed that, while my rear tire was 20" from the curb, the vehicle in front and behind me were both, overall, taking up more room in the street and my car posed no problems to traffic. It was dismissed.

My son is a soldier. He does not torture or murder. Neither do his fellow soldiers.

In fact he is a medic who heals and saves lives - even those of the enemy.

If caudicus is implying my son and his fellow soliders are torturers and murderers he may want to avoid getting within range of me in the real world. I might be tempted to do something immoral and illegal.

The implication was that, if you cannot separate individual's actions from the organizations, and you are part of an organization that does immoral things, you are immoral. I didn't say it. You did.

Separating the influence and culpability of people from organizations is impossible.

You and I are currently part of an organization of people that tortures and murders people. Obviously, you feel separated from the culpability. I did not, and that is why I left the country for many years. My stay here is temporary, while I get some family affairs in order. I am saying I agree with what you said. It makes choices difficult because, on an aggregate level, we all contribute to a lot of nasty things we may not even be aware of.

From the sweatshops that make your shoes, to the slaughterhouses that mistreat animals. If you had to cut the throat of every animal you ate, how much would that effect your meat consumption? Would you treat your livestock humanely? If your kids were making shoes, how many hours per day would you let them work?

If you want to relegate this to a rant about war, then you are missing the point. The point is the same as cheating on your taxes. Even if it is a debt based system, our taxes enter a pool of money that allows fractional reserves to let loose more money... even if it is called out of thin air into an electronic ledger. Bad things are done with that money.

If I buy a pair of Nikes, then I am voting and supporting, with my money, for the unethical practices that go along with child labor and sweatshops. Anti-depressants are prescribed even after studies have shown them to be just as effective as placebos. People buy them and continue to fund the unethical processes of deceit and kickbacks. The only tools we have to fight these types of things are transparency and education.

How do you give your money away in a moral manner in this modern age? It isn't easy. Even the church gets revenue from pornography, indirectly. For me, that is why cheating on taxes is such a complex issue. That is why buying all kinds of things is a complex issue. That is why even living in the US is hard to justify, morally.

Edited September 7, 2012 by caudicus

[ERayR]

I sent a check with a request for dismissal, since I drive a sports car where the door would have hit the curb if I was parked any closer. The picture I included also showed that, while my rear tire was 20" from the curb, the vehicle in front and behind me were both, overall, taking up more room in the street and my car posed no problems to traffic. It was dismissed.

The implication was that, if you cannot separate individual's actions from the organizations, and you are part of an organization that does immoral things, you are immoral. I didn't say it. You did.

You and I are currently part of an organization of people that tortures and murders people. Obviously, you feel separated from the culpability. I did not, and that is why I left the country for many years. My stay here is temporary, while I get some family affairs in order. I am saying I agree with what you said. It makes choices difficult because, on an aggregate level, we all contribute to a lot of nasty things we may not even be aware of.

From the sweatshops that make your shoes, to the slaughterhouses that mistreat animals. If you had to cut the throat of every animal you ate, how much would that effect your meat consumption? Would you treat your livestock humanely? If your kids were making shoes, how many hours per day would you let them work?

If you want to relegate this to a rant about war, then you are missing the point. The point is the same as cheating on your taxes. Even if it is a debt based system, our taxes enter a pool of money that allows fractional reserves to let loose more money... even if it is called out of thin air into an electronic ledger. Bad things are done with that money.

If I buy a pair of Nikes, then I am voting and supporting, with my money, for the unethical practices that go along with child labor and sweatshops. Anti-depressants are prescribed even after studies have shown them to be just as effective as placebos. People buy them and continue to fund the unethical processes of deceit and kickbacks. The only tools we have to fight these types of things are transparency and education.

How do you give your money away in a moral manner in this modern age? It isn't easy. Even the church gets revenue from pornography, indirectly. For me, that is why cheating on taxes is such a complex issue. That is why buying all kinds of things is a complex issue. That is why even living in the US is hard to justify, morally.

Morality isn't all that hard if you don't base your own personal morality on someone elses actions.

[caudicus]

That is exactly the irresponsible approach to society that causes all of these problems. We all have a personal stake in what other people do.

[ERayR]

That is exactly the irresponsible approach to society that causes all of these problems. We all have a personal stake in what other people do.

You don't have to lower your standards (cheat on your taxes, etc) because you think someone else is less than honest.

[Danzo]

On the last one it is fine as long as the IRS agrees.

The IRS doesn't have to agree, the Tax court regularly grants estimates of expenses that the IRS does not agree to

[ERayR]

The IRS doesn't have to agree, the Tax court regularly grants estimates of expenses that the IRS does not agree to

Oh I am well aware of that but it sure makes it difficult when one has to go to court. The cost of going to court can even wipe out any tax savings you gain from the deduction you are taking. Court is not cheap. However sometimes one can negotiate with them and come to an agreement on the amount of the estimate.

The best thing is to make sure your estimates are reasonable and can be supported.

Edited September 7, 2012 by ERayR

[caudicus]

You don't have to lower your standards (cheat on your taxes, etc) because you think someone else is less than honest.

I don't cheat on my taxes. I have citizenship in other countries with much less military spending that don't conduct themselves in the shadows to spy on us all.

Have you ever heard of the experiment about fairness with monkeys? There are four of them, facing each other. They are taught to perform a task and, in return for performing that task, they get a treat. Monkey #1 performs a task, and he gets a bland cracker. He is happy with this treat until he sees Monkey #2 perform the same exact task, resulting in a grape as a treat. Monkey #3 and #4 get progressively better treats and Monkey #1 freaks out. He performs the task, expecting a cookie now, but is given the same bland cracker. He refuses it. He thinks it is unfair that #4 gets a cookie, and he only gets a stupid cracker.

The monkeys understand something very basic that people are trying to make us forget about, all the time. My expectations are, in the very least, that corporations, who aren't even people with feelings and a sense of justice, should be paying the same percentage as me. Even a freaking monkey gets it. The only reason people have to pay their taxes is not out of a sense of duty, but out of a fear of being punished.

Beyond that, we are humans, and we have a broader understanding of cause and effect and, as such, have a responsibility to ourselves and our fellow man to arm ourselves with that information to be better, as individuals, and better, as a community. Tribalism, nationalism, and all of the crap that one group is better than another because of antiquated cultural perceptions is what is keeping us primitive. We are not separate. We are in this together and that is why I have issues with contributing to evil, in any way possible, in the course of my life.

If, at the end of your life, all you did was look out for number one, what good have you really left behind? If you want to see everyone else left in the dust, so long as your own salvation was intact, what good would heaven even be?

[ERayR]

I don't cheat on my taxes. I have citizenship in other countries with much less military spending that don't conduct themselves in the shadows to spy on us all.

Have you ever heard of the experiment about fairness with monkeys? There are four of them, facing each other. They are taught to perform a task and, in return for performing that task, they get a treat. Monkey #1 performs a task, and he gets a bland cracker. He is happy with this treat until he sees Monkey #2 perform the same exact task, resulting in a grape as a treat. Monkey #3 and #4 get progressively better treats and Monkey #1 freaks out. He performs the task, expecting a cookie now, but is given the same bland cracker. He refuses it. He thinks it is unfair that #4 gets a cookie, and he only gets a stupid cracker.

The monkeys understand something very basic that people are trying to make us forget about, all the time. My expectations are, in the very least, that corporations, who aren't even people with feelings and a sense of justice, should be paying the same percentage as me. Even a freaking monkey gets it. The only reason people have to pay their taxes is not out of a sense of duty, but out of a fear of being punished.

Beyond that, we are humans, and we have a broader understanding of cause and effect and, as such, have a responsibility to ourselves and our fellow man to arm ourselves with that information to be better, as individuals, and better, as a community. Tribalism, nationalism, and all of the crap that one group is better than another because of antiquated cultural perceptions is what is keeping us primitive. We are not separate. We are in this together and that is why I have issues with contributing to evil, in any way possible, in the course of my life.

If, at the end of your life, all you did was look out for number one, what good have you really left behind? If you want to see everyone else left in the dust, so long as your own salvation was intact, what good would heaven even be?

Whew! I don't know how to answer your post. I can't say as I disagree with what you say but the tone seems a little over the top. We are all hoping for a much better world and are working to get there. One problem is we don't all agree on how to get there. It just might be that some of those "antiquated cultural perceptions" might help. As I said the problem is getting everybody on the same page.

[Carborendum]

I'm still wondering what caudicus means by "cheating".

"Personally, I don't see too much trouble with the average person cheating a little on their taxes."

I have a problem with an income tax at any rate. But it is the law of the land whether we like it or not.

"...cheating a little is okay, in my book."

What are you calling "cheating"? I might disagree with you about both the definition and whether it is ok to cheat "a little".

"...we all cheat in our favor in a million different ways in every system we participate in."

When? If you're talking about how my money or support goes down twelve degrees of separation to someone I'm not even aware of, then Jesus Himself was a cheater. I reject that standard. It has to do with knowledge and intent.

[The Nehor]

The only moral tax is a tax on somebody else.

[JarMan]

Originally written was point. The Original Constitution gave Congress power to tax, thus, in my mind, making the 16th Amendment superfluous; but for the States, individually agreeing to it.

The Supreme Court ruled the income tax unconstitutional. Thus it took an amendment to reinstate it. At any rate your reasoning implies that anything done by the government (as long as the power to do it is granted by the constitution) falls under the umbrella of being inspired and is, therefore, moral. Surely you can see the error in that reasoning.

[KevinG]

The worst thing you did was publish it on the interwebs, you should probably redact your statement

Redact what. The fact that if he continues to lie and imply I am a part of an organization that tortures or murders he won't be greeted by a happy man?

Caudicus is engaging in trolling and insulting and it gets less subtle as we go on i this silly conversation.

[Ares]

By that line of reasoning, are you not a murderer, since you belong to an organization that tortures and kills innocent people? What are you doing to not be a torturer and murderer?

Take a break caudicus.