Question About Rod Meldrum Theories

[MormonMason]

My understanding (granted it is thirdhand) is that at least two DNA specialists offered him corrections him extensively before he published his materials...no significant changes, if any, occurred then either.

That is what I seem to recall about it as well. It is a shame, too. I used to know someone else who was adamant about the river Sidon being the Magdalena in South America. You should have seen what he did when someone presented him with Palmer's Mesoamerican LGT model in his In Search of Cumorah. It was the same for any other model that was mentioned by those who liked the other models other than the Hemispheric model.

His face would turn red. He would cast insults. He would accuse anyone holding such a view of going against the Brethren and their teachings about the Hemispheric model of Book of Mormon geography. He would bear his testimony that he knew by the Spirit that the Hemispheric model was true and that the Brethren were experts on Book of Mormon geography because they got revelation on the subject. 10 years or so later he was out of the Church.

He never did a website, tours, books, or sold DVDs, though. (Of course, there were no such things as websites, DVDs, and CDs, back then).

Edited September 15, 2012 by MormonMason

[shalamabobbi]

It is so easy to see. It has to be Idaho because of that narrow neck of land right there between Washington and Montana. Don't you all think I should set up my website and start booking tours to the lake region of Idaho and booking speaking engagements.

Are there any tapirs in Idaho?

[ERayR]

Are there any tapirs in Idaho?

YUP! Send a very large donation and I will tell the secret location.

[MormonMason]

Thanks. I'm not sure that really settles much. I would read the Cumorah cross out to indicate that Joseph Smith wanted to expand Zelph's fame to a larger part of the continent. A dedicated MesoAmericanist would argue that crossing out Cumorah removes an improper reference to Cumorah that Joseph Smith didn't maintain.

I think a textualist, or an expert in textualism, might argue that simply putting the word "Cumorah" there in the first place demonstrated a wide-spread view.

After having read as many of the accounts as I could get my hands on and comparing them, I could not help but wonder whether or not it was a rumor account based on something that was said. I see the corrections as directed removals of various extraneous things from what was going to be the official record to make it as accurate as possible. I am still inclined to read it that way. It is akin to the heavily conflicting stories about Joseph Smith's having translated the Kinderhook plates when those closest to him (such as John Taylor) said they had no idea what his opinion was about them. There were so many conflicting reports that I thought the same thing before I came across Brother Stanley B. Kimball's article about the Kinderhook plates in 1981.

Edited September 15, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

Well, when you rely on the arm of the flesh you might receive some satisfaction. You might also be disappointed.

For example, Cyrus Gordon is a very respected fellow. He championed the Bat Creek Stone. Lots of members of the church signed onto that concept.

As well, the last time I was at the Mexico City temple, the on-ground visitors' center was selling replicas of the Chiapas Stela 5. There's been a lot of pot shots taken at Stela 5 and folks are going to be disappointed, but the arm of the flesh set up Stela 5, not God.

I would be inclined to agree with the above. I saw it when the first Dead Sea Scrolls were published and people noted that the Isaiah text there did not support as much of the Book of Mormon as people would have liked. There was considerable disappointment over that and the Tanners jumped on that pretty quickly. My response to that was, "Meh." I was nonchalant about it because I understood something that those seeking a Hebrew original for Book of Mormon readings of Isaiah didn't. The plates of brass were not written in Hebrew but in Egyptian.

Take a look at the various ancient language versions of Isaiah and you will see all sorts of adjustments and enlargements of various texts of Isaiah in the translation. That is often what happened with translations of the Hebrew, no matter how old. The version of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon is an ancient Egyptian version or translation of a Hebrew multi-generational copy, not the original.

Therefore, I never expected them to find all the readings in the Book of Mormon in some older Hebrew manuscript. If it happens one day, then that would be wonderful. If it never happens, there is no disappointment.

And, I still remember those Stela 5 replicas. I still have mine after all these years!

Edited September 15, 2012 by MormonMason

[webbles]

So, it seems that disapproval of the speculation business in the past has meant, among the Brethren, that we can't get more specific than "all of the Americas" but we at least know where the old and new Cumorah is.

This particular outward-in exclusion, with the Cumorah proviso, can be seen with Pres. Ivin's thoughts. In 1928, he said: "We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." (Conf Report, April 1928.) But in 1929, he addressed the question of "[w]here was the land of Zarahemla" with the response: "We do not offer any definite solution. As you study the Book of Mormon keep these things in mind and do not make definite statements concerning things that have not been proven in advance to be true." (Conf Report, April 1929.)

According to Harold B. Lee, we don't have the longitude and latitude of the "old" Cumorah. So I don't think there is "Cumorah proviso" (at least anymore). I believe I've brought this up before with you.

Some say the Hill Cumorah was in southern Mexico (and someone pushed it down still farther) and not in western New York. Well, if the Lord wanted us to know where it was, or where Zarahemla was, he’d have given us latitude and longitude, don’t you think?

[Calm]

And, I still remember those Stela 5 replicas. I still have mine after all these years!

I wouldn't mind having one. Who cares if they have anything to do with the BoM or not. They look cool!

[Bob Crockett]

According to Harold B. Lee, we don't have the longitude and latitude of the "old" Cumorah. So I don't think there is "Cumorah proviso" (at least anymore). I believe I've brought this up before with you.

I think your comment goes more to showing the ridiculousness of having an entire cottage industry devoted to Book of Mormon geography rather than merely proving me wrong.

[Calm]

My understanding (granted it is thirdhand) is that at least two DNA specialists offered him corrections him extensively before he published his materials...no significant changes, if any, occurred then either.

For example, here is a generic analysis from one of these specialists:

http://maxwellinstit...22&num=1&id=796

Also:

Meldrum concludes the chapter by finally mentioning that "Native American haplogroup X2a is unique in that to date no matching lineage in the Old World has been found" (p. 85). But he then appeals to Latter-day Saint geneticist Ugo Perego in support of the claim that "the Native American lineage is considered to be associated with the Old World 'branches'" (p. 85). Perego has been taken out of context. As he explained to me,

There is no doubt that X2 has an "Old World" origin, just as A, B, C, and D do. Every mtDNA lineage in the world today has "Old World" origins. They then spread to the four corners of the earth developing their own unique mutational motifs. Everyone involved with population genetic studies accepts that X2 has Ancient Near East origins, but X2a (and the newly proposed X2g subbranch) have their own unique set of mutations that are not shared with any of the known Old World X2 lineages. That is why I stated clearly that they do not cluster with any Old World lineages.

177

Perego also notes that X2a's entry into the Americas dates to 15,000–17,000 years ago (and believes his work has succeeded in narrowing this range from the broader 13,500–19,000 years ago based on archaeological, geologic, linguistic, and genetic data).178 Had Meldrum's quotation of Perego continued to the end of the paragraph, we would also have learned that "X2a was [likely] the founder sequence" (i.e., the autochthonous form of the X2 sublineage)179for all X2a mtDNAs found among North American peoples—but knowing that would show all the Druze and Jewish data to be useless for Meldrum's purposes.

At a FAIR conference, Perego addressed the issue of haplogroup X as a Nephite marker:

• Does [haplogroup X] provide evidence to support a pre-Columbian Israelite migration to the Western Hemisphere? No.

• Some argue that X shows the arrival of Lehi and so on, but this explanation is too easy. The data seem to indicate that X was from an ancient group twelve thousand years ago and that Lehi's mtDNA has disappeared.180

Meldrum has heard all this because he attended Perego's presentation. I know because I saw him there. But his readers will not know, nor does he make any effort to inform them.

http://maxwellinstit...=793#_ednref177

Meldrum's tendency to employ double standards manifests itself here. He asks, "How do we know if any rate changing has actually occurred," making the evolutionary rate slower and the pedigree rate faster? (p. 122). This is a good question, but Meldrum should ask it of himself (as others have done).213.....

213. Perego tells me that he personally explained this to Meldrum (Perego to Smith, 28 February 2010).

http://maxwellinstit...=793#_ednref213

Brother Perego was also kind enough to review Greg Smith's review of Brother Meldrum's theory as well as all FAIR material to make sure we got the DNA stuff right.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[MormonMason]

I wouldn't mind having one. Who cares if they have anything to do with the BoM or not. They look cool!

I agree. That is the only reason I kept it and tried to take care of it all these years. They are very hard to find. However, there is another one available that you can own for your very own. It is more detailed than the original plaster replica that I have.

You can see it here: http://www.maskeryandlund.com/izapa5.html

I had an interesting experience with a person who was taking his sweet time investigating the Church. He one day was reading one of his bathroom books and saw a photo of the pyramids in Egypt in it that reminded him of a Stela 5 replica he saw at a member's home. When he looked at both objects and studied them out for a while, he ended up joining the Church. He was so excited to point out to me what he had seen.

I saw it and it was an interesting coincidence. If you look at the pyramids in Egypt a certain way from a certain angle, it looked just like a silhouette image of the same pyramids in the left side of the lower "narrow path" section of Stela 5, abutting against the tree and fountain, including the two mestaba type pyramids that had been found and uncovered in Egypt at the time and which were in the photo he saw in his bathroom book. I see it as an interesting coincidence but nothing spiritually earth-shattering. He ended up leaving the Church not long afterward, anyway, so it couldn't have been that significant to him as he made out at the time.

[Calm]

Christmas present for myself perhaps!

Hmm....the "it came to pass" glyph is quite a bit cheaper, I may have to go with that instead. Get the other next year.

Ack! They have a Liahona 'replica'...that is just so wrong. Maybe as a cute little charm, but $350 for something that is just an artist's imagination...I really don't like it when they present stuff as factual that isn't. I've seen it done with the Jupiter Medallion as well.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[nealr]

And, I still remember those Stela 5 replicas. I still have mine after all these years!

There is a big one hanging on the wall in the study area of the Orem Institute building (at UVU). Whenever I'm there I always wonder how many people think it might have something to do with the Book of Mormon.

[MormonMason]

There is a big one hanging on the wall in the study area of the Orem Institute building (at UVU). Whenever I'm there I always wonder how many people think it might have something to do with the Book of Mormon.

I wonder how many people would have a crisis of faith if they found out it didn't.

[MormonMason]

Christmas present for myself perhaps!

Hmm....the "it came to pass" glyph is quite a bit cheaper, I may have to go with that instead. Get the other next year.

Ack! They have a Liahona 'replica'...that is just so wrong. Maybe as a cute little charm, but $350 for something that is just an artist's imagination...I really don't like it when they present stuff as factual that isn't. I've seen it done with the Jupiter Medallion as well.

I know what you mean! I have seen some of the most ridiculous stuff peddled. My personal favorite was the fake Masonic Jewels (said to have been on the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum Smith) that they sold on eBay some years ago. They weren't replicas and they weren't Masonic Jewels. I wonder how many people got suckered with that one before I found them and reported it to eBay.

Edited September 16, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

...

I will not pull any punches. I know others feel the opposite. I have family members swearing he [Meldrum] will be called as the next General Authority. But for me no thank you.

People used to say that about me, sometimes in my presence. (In my younger years I was a very dynamic speaker and teacher). Thankfully, I have avoided that fate and likely will miss it entirely. You have to be insane to want that sort of calling. Same goes for those wanting and aspiring to be a Bishop.

[Anijen]

People used to say that about me, sometimes in my presence. (In my younger years I was a very dynamic speaker and teacher). Thankfully, I have avoided that fate and likely will miss it entirely. You have to be insane to want that sort of calling. Same goes for those wanting and aspiring to be a Bishop.

Say it in my favorite Brooklyn accent; are you talking to me? Just to clarify I was speaking of what my aunt thought about Meldrum, not me. I have never had and never will have a desire to be a Bishop or a General Authority, not gonna happen. I do not seek after any calling except for the one Nofear has. It was my last calling and I really enjoyed it.

[MormonMason]

Say it in my favorite Brooklyn accent; are you talking to me? Just to clarify I was speaking of what my aunt thought about Meldrum, not me. I have never had and never will have a desire to be a Bishop or a General Authority, not gonna happen. I do not seek after any calling except for the one Nofear has. It was my last calling and I really enjoyed it.

No, I knew you were referring to Meldrum. As for me, I know the Lord has quite a sense of humor. But, if he ever called me to any General Authority position I rather think the joke would be on the Church!

[Mehrdad]

Meldrum's theory is very interesting, I think over the next couple of years we are going to find more about his theories and test it, and see if they lead anywhere.

[Anijen]

Meldrum's theory is very interesting, I think over the next couple of years we are going to find more about his theories and test it, and see if they lead anywhere.

I have been in the process of testing some of it, mostly the archaeology aspect of it. So far less than persuasive.

[cursor]

I just re-read a great article that appeared in an Improvement Era from 1950, by Apostle James A. Widtsoe. In it he says:

As far as can be learned, the Prophet Joseph Smith, translator of the book, did not say where, on the

American continent, Book of Mormon activities occurred. Perhaps he did not know.

And,

On the journey into northwestern Missouri, led by the Prophet, the skeleton of a large man was uncovered near the Illinois River. Joseph Smith said it was the remains of a white Lamanite named Zelph, a leader among this people. This is not of much value in Book of Mormon geographical studies, since Zelph probably dated from a later time when Nephites and Lamanites had been somewhat dispersed and had wandered over the country.

Is Book of Mormon Geography Known?

Edited September 19, 2012 by cursor

[webbles]

I just re-read a great article that appeared in an Improvement Era from 1950, by Apostle James A. Widtsoe. In it he says:

As far as can be learned, the Prophet Joseph Smith, translator of the book, did not say where, on the

American continent, Book of Mormon activities occurred. Perhaps he did not know.

And,

On the journey into northwestern Missouri, led by the Prophet, the skeleton of a large man was uncovered near the Illinois River. Joseph Smith said it was the remains of a white Lamanite named Zelph, a leader among this people. This is not of much value in Book of Mormon geographical studies, since Zelph probably dated from a later time when Nephites and Lamanites had been somewhat dispersed and had wandered over the country.

Is Book of Mormon Geography Known?

Pretty cool.

I think the PDF is missing a page though. At the bottom of page 547, it says that it is continued on 596 but only 597 is available.

[cursor]

I'll investigate, then fix, if necessary ... tomorrow. =)

[cursor]

I think the PDF is missing a page though. At the bottom of page 547, it says that it is continued on 596 but only 597 is available.

Thanks for reporting that, webbles.. I've now inserted the missing page. Clicking the link in post #470 above will download the corrected PDF.