How Do You Obey A Fallible Prophet With "Exactness"?

[helix]

cinepro, you always raise solid questions. I've always respected that.

It boils down to the following quotation given at the end of that lesson in the manual:

"Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.’"

Previously it described the young Ammonites as following their leader with exactness. Then it relates us to them, saying we are a spiritual army of the Lord (not a prophet). Then that quote is later given, which indicates that we are to follow the prophet with exactness "words and commandments the Lord shall give through his prophet." Everything seems to relate back to ultimately following the Lord with exactness, and the Lord's commandments and teachings given to prophets with exactness. But not everything the prophet says with exactness.

Obviously, the sticking point is when he speaking on his own, and when it is a proclamation from the Lord. We've been instructed we can pray to gain our own testimony of a commandment or teaching. But you know this discussion well.

Edited September 3, 2012 by helix

[cesc101]

How do you obey a fallible prophet with exactness?

Prayerfully.

Thank goodness you did not say BLINDLY!

So what happens when results of "prayerfully" conflict with "exactness"?

Thank God for Agency/Consequences...

[DBMormon]

Following the Prophet with exactness is not equivalent to following him with blindness.

Can one follow the spirit causing him to ignore the wrong opinion of a prophet and still follow him with exactness?

[DBMormon]

In a military situation that makes perfect sense. Why the manual writer felt the need to expand on it in that way I don't know. One more reason I don't use the manual much when I teach. They're pretty bad.

Teryl Givens whom I respect very much agrees with this. He says the church manuals are deplorable and need major updating. He also followed that saying the Church is a big ship and we need to be patient in the speed of progress we expect

[DBMormon]

The spiritual confirmation that is the duty of church members to seek and obtain, then leads to the protection of the exactness. It is only after one gets that spiritual confirmation that church members are to do what the prophets have asked. (And members aren't supposed to take their own sweet time seeking it either.)

Do we teach it this way, or do most manuals and most teachers unknowingly teach blind obedience?

I find most teach "blind obedience" think that is the correct framework then when confronted with "lead by the spirit" framework, they then concede their "blind obedience" and adopt "lead by the spirit" through that experience, then two weeks later they are teaching "Blind Obedience" again not having the anchor of further development to see this paradigm in it's appropriate role..

Edited September 3, 2012 by DBMormon

[shalamabobbi]

May 14, 1961 - Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith announces to stake conference in Honolulu:

We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it...

The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.

After Apollo 15's journey to the moon, the astronaut team brought JFS a Utah State Flag that they had taken with them to the moon. They gave him the flag in 1971 as a token of his "failed prophecy."

Jonah flees from the responsibility of his call.

Peter denies thrice.

The early apostles fail to comprehend the statement about the other sheep.

Yep, prophets and apostles are infallible..

Makes about as much sense as the EV position that the bible is infallible..

It's like in the matrix where they plug in and download a program so that one instance where they did not know how to fly a helicopter is followed by the next instance where they do. Would you consider a prophet any less a prophet for not having the ability to fly a helicopter? What about not having a degree in biology or geology?

In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:

Question 14: Do you believe that the President of the Church, when speaking to the Church in his official capacity is infallible?

Answer: We do not believe in the infallibility of man. When God reveals anything it is truth, and truth is infallible. No President of the Church has claimed infallibility. — Charles W. Penrose, "Peculiar Questions Briefly Answered," Improvement Era 15 no. 11 (September 1912).

http://en.fairmormon.../Moon_inhabited

[zerinus]

Can one follow the spirit causing him to ignore the wrong opinion of a prophet and still follow him with exactness?

Yes.

[CV75]

we are taught to follow with "exactness".

Yes, with exactness, or integrity (adhering to the truth so as to follow it).

[DBMormon]

Oh yeah? Well I am at stage 15!

Seriously- I see these stages as an opportunity to see oneself as more "mature" or whatever term you want to apply.

Clearly the higher the number the better you are and besides only smart people will even find these stages to begin with- or at least those are the tacit assumptions here I think. Maybe it is a way to put others down.

But I suppose I have elitist tendencies anyway so that is why I am aware of what fosters them. So because I guess I figured this out, I am clearly better than anyone else on this thread.

Do I put in a smiley or not?

Nah.

Your right one can use the stages to show he is further ahead or better then another. But irony is once one is truly in stage 5 he does not look down on those in lower stages and he recognizes each stage is important and there is no way to skip a stage And that it is best and safer to not push people through the stages. I am not there yet, so to that end you are correct. The higher number has no say on the better you are. One issue is that those in 3 think those in stage 4 are behind them. Those in stage 4 think those in stage 5 are behind them. My innapropriate emotional putback was "your mocking me, and yet you have no right to". Perhaps when I get to a complete Stage 5, I will be able to come back to this thread and apoligize.

I just get frustrated that in stage 4 I am frustrated at times that things have to be so nuanced. When someone comes here in a stage 3 black/white outlook and mocks me for sharing a deeper way to see things, I felt a desire to lash back. My bad.

P.S. Stage 15 is awesome.... You deserve a medal!

[zerinus]

In a military situation that makes perfect sense. Why the manual writer felt the need to expand on it in that way I don't know. One more reason I don't use the manual much when I teach. They're pretty bad.

Teryl Givens whom I respect very much agrees with this. He says the church manuals are deplorable and need major updating. He also followed that saying the Church is a big ship and we need to be patient in the speed of progress we expect

I find the manuals to be very good. What makes them good is that (1) that they are scripture based, and (2) they are flexible and adaptable; they allow a good teacher to adapt the lessons to the circumstances of the class. Ignoring the manual and resorting to extraneous sources is likely to result in failure in teaching.

[cesc101]

Yes.

HOW?!

I guess the word "exactness" in this thread has thrown me off-balance...

[DBMormon]

the issue here is

1.) no one fits perfectly into these stages.

2.) Most of the church is made up of stage 3's black/white. this is natural and nothing is wrong with that

3.) Stage 4 can involve a lot of pain and anguish in and of itself as one tries to re-define his world and put the pieces back in place.

4.) Those in stage three look at those in stage 4 as an apostate or at minimum heading backwards because they are no longer basing their beliefs externally but rather internally.... wrong. They are naturally moving forward. Stage 4 is a more mature level of thinking.

5.) In 3's looking down on 4's, it makes it more difficult for 4's to move to 5's while still holding belief and faith.

[DBMormon]

I find the manuals to be very good. What makes them good is that (1) that they are scripture based, and (2) they are flexible and adaptable; they allow a good teacher to adapt the lessons to the circumstances of the class. Ignoring the manual and resorting to extraneous sources is likely to result in failure in teaching.

I will agree to disagee, as I have no problem with one using the theme of the manual's lesson but adapting it to the needs of the class and still using scriptures and teaching truth

Edited September 3, 2012 by DBMormon

[Thinking]

I always thought it was better to follow a wrong, true prophet, then a right, false one.

I believe that what is right is more important than who is right.

[zerinus]

Do we teach it this way, or do most manuals and most teachers unknowingly teach blind obedience?

I find most teach "blind obedience" think that is the correct framework then when confronted with "lead by the spirit" framework, they then concede their "blind obedience" and adopt "lead by the spirit" through that experience, then two weeks later they are teaching "Blind Obedience" again not having the anchor of further development to see this paradigm in it's appropriate role..

Blind obedience is better than rebellion or disobedience. Not everyone is equipped to know when a prophet is making a mistake; and some people who think they know, don't.

[DBMormon]

I believe that what is right is more important than who is right.

amen.... Obviously this is also shades of gray but for the most part I agree

[zerinus]

HOW?!

How not?

I guess the word "exactness" in this thread has thrown me off-balance...

You said it.

[DBMormon]

Blind obedience is better than rebellion or disobedience. Not everyone is equipped to know when a prophet is making a mistake; and some people who think they know, don't.

I agree to the extent it is better to follow the prophet blindly then to disobey blindly. But in the end the responsibility is the individuals to have the Holy Ghost and to be led by it and to make decisions based on it..

Edited September 3, 2012 by DBMormon

[The Grimace]

How do you follow a fallible calculator? If you had a calculator that only gave the correct answer, say, 90% of the time, and your success in school/business/finance depended on use of that calculator, what would you do? Would you keep the calculator and just have faith that all answers are correct? Or would you verify each answer by hand, and when the calculator answer didn't agree with your hand-calculated answer, would you reject the calculator's answer or would you attempt to rationalize the calculator's answer and use it anyways?

[DBMormon]

How do you follow a fallible calculator? If you had a calculator that only gave the correct answer, say, 90% of the time, and your success in school/business/finance depended on use of that calculator, what would you do? Would you keep the calculator and just have faith that all answers are correct? Or would you verify each answer by hand, and when the calculator answer didn't agree with your hand-calculated answer, would you reject the calculator's answer or would you attempt to rationalize the calculator's answer and use it anyways?

what if you had a another program that told you what 90% of the time the calculator is right? that's the Holy Ghost. Follow the spirit and it will testify of truth. Prophets are speaking God's will 100% of the time when they are speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost... it's a grown up faith, it requires more work, more effort on our part ... but it's where real growth happens.

Edited September 3, 2012 by DBMormon

[zerinus]

How do you follow a fallible calculator?

You don't. A prophet is not a calculator. All prophets are fallible. There has never been an infallible prophet. The word of God given through a prophet is infallible. You follow the word of God given through the prophet.

[shalamabobbi]

How do you follow a fallible calculator? If you had a calculator that only gave the correct answer, say, 90% of the time, and your success in school/business/finance depended on use of that calculator, what would you do? Would you keep the calculator and just have faith that all answers are correct? Or would you verify each answer by hand, and when the calculator answer didn't agree with your hand-calculated answer, would you reject the calculator's answer or would you attempt to rationalize the calculator's answer and use it anyways?

Math is a discipline that is black or white, right or wrong without shades of gray. A better analogy might be to compare a prophet to a basketball coach. Is it possible for the coach to be right about the game strategies that are best in order to win the game and yet still be wrong about which stocks are going to rise or fall in the stock market?

[The Grimace]

what if you had a another program that told you what 90% of the time the calculator is right? that's the Holy Ghost. Follow the spirit and it will testify of truth. Prophets are speaking God's will 100% of the time when they are speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost... it's a grown up faith, it requires more work, more effort on our part ... but it's where real growth happens.

You see, this is *exactly* what is wrong with the notion of a prophet. A prophet speaks God's will, but no one can ever know if he is speaking God's will unless one goes to this middle-man, the Holy Ghost who will tell you whether the prophet was speaking as a man or as a conduit of God.

Yet...here we have Dallin Oaks saying:

"Unfortunately, it is common for persons who are violating God’s commandments or disobedient to the counsel of their priesthood leaders to declare that God has revealed to them that they are excused from obeying some commandment or from following some counsel. Such persons may be receiving revelation or inspiration, but it is not from the source they suppose. The devil is the father of lies, and he is ever anxious to frustrate the work of God by his clever imitations."

While we have this Holy Ghost middle-man, it appears that the only thing the Holy Ghost is capable of doing is saying, "Yes, the prophet spoke with the authority of God" Any time the Holy Ghost says, "No, the prophet is speaking as a man", the Holy Ghost is clearly not involved.

So, I don't understand how it's possible to EVER get an answer from the Holy Ghost that is anything BUT in agreement with the prophet. And if this is the case, we don't need the Holy Ghost at all because the a prophet that is ALWAYS validated by the Holy Ghost is NEVER wrong.

Or, in other words, infallible.

[shalamabobbi]

So, I don't understand how it's possible to EVER get an answer from the Holy Ghost that is anything BUT in agreement with the prophet. And if this is the case, we don't need the Holy Ghost at all because the a prophet that is ALWAYS validated by the Holy Ghost is NEVER wrong.

Or, in other words, infallible.

Upon those points about which our eternal salvation depends, yes. Upon other points that lay in the realm of speculation about matters of geologic history etc not so much..

Gaining a testimony of the prophet's calling involves making changes in one's behavior and at some point one has to simply act in faith and give a new lifestyle a try. Afterwards one can know that the new lifestyle is an improvement over where they were before and also become worthy of the companionship of the Holy Ghost which will continue to confirm true teachings and guide the individual in his personal life.

Edited September 3, 2012 by shalamabobbi

[DBMormon]

The Grimace -

Helaman 3:35 - this life is about change, and that change comes from yielding our heart to God.... Speaking only for myself, I have a lot of yielding to do.

It isn't easy... but truth is available to those who seek. Then each of us have agency to choose what we feel is right. But it better be "his" right and not "our" right. Tough... very tough but that is the way... choose for yourself as for me and my house...

I feel the pain that comes from your heart in sorting this out now or whether your dark night was years ago. If you follow truth the best you can, God will judge. Certainly not any other poster here myself included. For me... I find truth here (in the church) and am willing to deal with the nonsense in an effort for God to change me. So that I might receive the Mighty Change and have his countenance upon me and written on my heart.

There is no perfect answer here other then the one God gives.

Edited September 3, 2012 by DBMormon