Battling Disinformation In The Ssm Debate

[wenglund]

Given some of the salient points raised in the excellent FAIR presentation by Joshua Johanson on Navigating the Labyrinth Surrounding Homosexual Desire, in contrast to the many shenanigans surrounding the recent Chick-Fil-A controversy, I thought it may be wise to, in the spirit of one of my favorite TV programs (Mythbusters), expose all the disinformation and propaganda myths plied by gay advocates generally in pursuit of their presumed agenda, and in relation to the SSM debate in particular.

Let me start this off by listing a few myths that come to mind, which we can discuss in greater detail later. Feel free to list some of your own if you wish.

The point being is to increase critical thinking in relation to these issues and sift through all the disinformation in hopes of making sound choices and holding rational positions.

Busted Propaganda:

1. People are homophobic if they are against SSM or other pro-gay issues.

2. People are anti-gay if they are against SSM.

3. People are hateful if they prefer that legalized marriage be reserved between a man and a woman.

4. The high rate of suicides among gays is due to _______ (anything other than homosexual behavior--i.e. having gay sex at an early age and having more same-sex partners)

5. It is unhealthy to suppress same-sex behaviors or to attempt to change same-sex desires, values, etc.

6. SSM is a right--fundamental, civil, human, or otherwise.

7. People with SSA can't have a healthy, sexually satisfying, relationship/marriages with someone of the opposite sex.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[altersteve]

The high rate of suicides among gays is due to _______ (anything other than homosexual behavior--i.e. having gay sex at an early age and having more same-sex partners)

I thought the high rate of suicides among gay people (teens especially) is due to bullying?

[cinepro]

4. The high rate of suicides among gays is due to _______ (anything other than homosexual behavior--i.e. having gay sex at an early age and having more same-sex partners)

So, people who act out on homosexual tendencies are more likely to commit suicide than those who don't?

Interesting.

[wenglund]

I thought the high rate of suicides among gay people (teens especially) is due to bullying?

Joshua sighted this study: Wichstrøm, Lars; Hegna, Kristinn, Sexual orientation and suicide attempt: A longitudinal study of the general Norwegian adolescent population. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol 112(1), Feb 2003, 144-151. http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0021-843X.112.1.144 , which he claimed indicated: "There were factors that affected everyone with SSA, such as social support and peer relationships. However, when he looked at just attraction and behavior, he found that only homosexual behavior was predictive of a higher suicide rate. Having gay sex at an earlier age and having more same-sex partners also contributed to suicide."

It is interesting to note that suicides among homosexuals has continued to increase even while public sentiment towards homosexuality has improved.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

So, people who act out on homosexual tendencies are more likely to commit suicide than those who don't? Interesting.

As indicated above, that is what Joshua reported were the findings of the cited study.

If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. By and large, people who lack functional adaptive and survival skills are more apt to engage in unhealthy behaviors (physically, emotionally, and spiritually), and people who engage in unhealthy behaviors tend to be more vulnerable to succumbing to life's challenges. It is a vicious circle. Risk factors for suicide in general include: mental/mood/personality disorders, substance abuse, impulsive/aggressive tendencies, major physical illnesses, etc., several of which homosexuals have a higher incidence of than the general population.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[altersteve]

Joshua sighted this study: Wichstrøm, Lars; Hegna, Kristinn, Sexual orientation and suicide attempt: A longitudinal study of the general Norwegian adolescent population. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Vol 112(1), Feb 2003, 144-151. http://psycnet.apa.o...-843X.112.1.144 , which he claimed indicated: "There were factors that affected everyone with SSA, such as social support and peer relationships. However, when he looked at just attraction and behavior, he found that only homosexual behavior was predictive of a higher suicide rate. Having gay sex at an earlier age and having more same-sex partners also contributed to suicide."

It is interesting to note that suicides among homosexuals has continued to increase even while public sentiment towards homosexuality has improved.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Interesting. Thank you for the info.

[wenglund]

Interesting. Thank you for the info.

I just located another study that bears out what I indicated to cinepro above: Risk Factors for attempted suicide in gay and bisexual youth.

The abstract reads, in part: "...attempters had more feminine gender roles and adopted a bisexual or homosexual identity at younger ages. Attempters were more likely than peers to report sexual abuse, drug abuse, and arrests for misconduct."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[USU78]

I thought the high rate of suicides among gay people (teens especially) is due to bullying?

A tendentious oversimplification and, frankly, slander.

[KevinG]

I wonder what study results for people keeping the law of chastity vs. those breaking it would be when it comes to suicide, drug abuse and other things we consider sins?

Keeping homosexuality out of this all together could there be a correlation between healthy behaviors (as defined by traditional religion) and value for self/life?

Edited to add: we all like to make exceptions for our own favorite sins. I find repentance and obedience brings me blessings I could not imagine while hanging on to sins.

Edited August 6, 2012 by KevinG

[Hamba Tuhan]

I wonder what study results for people keeping the law of chastity vs. those breaking it would be when it comes to suicide, drug abuse and other things we consider sins?

As just one example, promiscuous sexual behaviour in adolescents is directly correlated with drug and alcohol abuse, depression, and suicide.

The correlation is strong enough and has been known for long enough that the first prophet of the sexual revolution, Alfred Kinsey, felt it necessary to repeatedly dismiss the link by blaming not the sexual behaviours themselves but society's intolerance -- an argument which he logcially extended to infants, who, lacking negative socialisation, could only benefit from sexual encounters with adults as long as nobody got all uptight about it.

I find repentance and obedience brings me blessings I could not imagine while hanging on to sins.

Same!

Edited August 6, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[wenglund]

I wonder what study results for people keeping the law of chastity vs. those breaking it would be when it comes to suicide, drug abuse and other things we consider sins?

Keeping homosexuality out of this all together could there be a correlation between healthy behaviors (as defined by traditional religion) and value for self/life?

Edited to add: we all like to make exceptions for our own favorite sins. I find repentance and obedience brings me blessings I could not imagine while hanging on to sins.

I favor what is said in Alma 41:10: "wickedness never was happiness."

However, not to get bogged down in the causes of suicide, to me the real myth (and perhaps I should have phrased it this way to begin with), is the insinuation that the high suicide rate among homosexuals is caused by public policies and positions that don't cave to the gay agenda, like SSM, and that those public policies should be altered so as to prevent the suicides.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 6, 2012 by wenglund

[Damien the Leper]

Any reason or source that gives purpose to suicidal ideation or motivation to commit a suicidal act, successful or not, is a reason or source too many. The epidemic of teen suicides in September 2010 is a harsh and real testament to that. No study or statistic can take away the very real stories and pain of those who have thought about taking their lives, those who have survived a suicide attempt, and those who were successful and are no longer with us. Also, no religion or religious moral ethic can diminish this reality.

[KevinG]

No one is diminishing it. Depression and suicide has touched my family directly.

What I am saying is to wrongly place blame on groups that oppose sin for the consequences of sin is to do a disservice to those suffering from the sin.

If you knew the plaque was spread by fleas would you continue to blame heretics?

[wenglund]

Any reason or source that gives purpose to suicidal ideation or motivation to commit a suicidal act, successful or not, is a reason or source too many.

People making dysfunctional and tragic personal choices, is not a good argument against functional and beneficial public policy. Rather, it is a good argument for addressing the dysfunction.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Damien the Leper]

I agree. No religion or religious ethic is worthy of blame for motivation to commit suicide or to die for.

[Damien the Leper]

People making dysfunctional and tragic personal choices, is not a good argument against functional and beneficial public policy. Rather, it is a good argument for addressing the dysfunction.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree with you here Wade. Just because SSM isn't legal in a state isn't worth committing suicide. That's just as bad as committing suicide because a church isn't ok with same sex relationships. No political or religious organization should have that kind of influence on a persons emotional and mental state. Nor should any person feel so audaciously impressed by such organizations. They simply aren't worth the time or effort or stress.

[Pahoran]

Dan Peterson posted the following on his blog:

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies: The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate."

- Rick Warren

Those "two huge lies" are, nowadays, not asserted so much as they are assumed. But any argument based upon them is necessarily false.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cwald]

Wade, I noticed you left out the myth that homosexuality is biological and not a choice. Was this on purpose or do you feel that it is biological?

I think many of these "myths" are irrelevant without the answer to that basic question. Would you agree?

[Verum]

I just located another study that bears out what I indicated to cinepro above: Risk Factors for attempted suicide in gay and bisexual youth.

The abstract reads, in part: "...attempters had more feminine gender roles and adopted a bisexual or homosexual identity at younger ages. Attempters were more likely than peers to report sexual abuse, drug abuse, and arrests for misconduct."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think its pretty difficult to establish this sort of causation, and it seems difficult to me how this sort of specific behavior would cause enough psychological stress to put someone at risk for suicide. I guess sexual behavior (hetorosexual or homosexual) at a younger age could cause this since they have not matured mentally or physically. But it seems much more compelling that factors such as increased discrimination from ones social environment, minority stress, and bullying that are often associated with LGBT youth is what primarily contributes to serious emotional and physical stress as many many studies suggest. And while the public sentiment has improved, its not necessarily the case at a micro level within ones family or culture, and especially not at the school level. The kind of bullying and division seen nowadays in schools is far different from what has been seen historically IMO.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Verum

[Damien the Leper]

Wade, I noticed you left out the myth that homosexuality is biological and not a choice. Was this on purpose or do you feel that it is biological?

I think many of these "myths" are irrelevant without the answer to that basic question. Would you agree?

Good call! The worst part of the myth is that only some people choose their sexual orientation. Such silliness...

[Damien the Leper]

Dan Peterson posted the following on his blog:

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies: The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate."

- Rick Warren

Those "two huge lies" are, nowadays, not asserted so much as they are assumed. But any argument based upon them is necessarily false.

Regards,

Pahoran

I absolutely 100% agree with this. Those who impose such lies deliberately misrepresent others. I don't know, honestly, if anyone would actually agree with what these lies imply.

[wenglund]

Wade, I noticed you left out the myth that homosexuality is biological and not a choice. Was this on purpose or do you feel that it is biological?

Actually, the myth, as Joshua pointed out, is that the question of nurture/nature is of significance and relevance, when it clearly isn't, and this because gay issues are about behaviors, not attractions. But, I appreciate you reminding me of this myth, whether you intended to or not.

I think many of these "myths" are irrelevant without the answer to that basic question. Would you agree?

The "myths" aren't relevant because they are myths. They are made no more or less relevant based on the myth that the nature/nurture debate is basic and relevant.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I think its pretty difficult to establish this sort of causation, and it seems difficult to me how this sort of specific behavior would cause enough psychological stress to put someone at risk for suicide. I guess sexual behavior (hetorosexual or homosexual) at a younger age could cause this since they have not matured mentally or physically. But it seems much more compelling that factors such as increased discrimination from ones social environment, minority stress, and bullying that are often associated with LGBT youth is what primarily contributes to serious emotional and physical stress as many many studies suggest. And while the public sentiment has improved, its not necessarily the case at a micro level within ones family or culture, and especially not at the school level. The kind of bullying and division seen nowadays in schools is far different from what has been seen historically IMO.

I agree with you that it is difficult to convincingly establish causation, though I think the things I noted are worthy of serious consideration, and perhaps the best we have to go on at this point.

Even still, as I mentioned earlier, "...not to get bogged down in the causes of suicide, to me the real myth (and perhaps I should have phrased it this way to begin with), is the insinuation that the high suicide rate among homosexuals is caused by public policies and positions that don't cave to the gay agenda, like SSM, and that those public policies should be altered so as to prevent the suicides."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Pahoran]

I absolutely 100% agree with this. Those who impose such lies deliberately misrepresent others. I don't know, honestly, if anyone would actually agree with what these lies imply.

As I mentioned, these tend to be assumed rather than asserted. I suspect that if they were asserted, more people would actually question them. And yet we hear constantly, from certain quarters, that we are "homophobic" if we disagree with SSM. And, as the Chick-Fil-A debacle has shown, one cannot be "tolerant" if they tolerate Mr Cathy's views, while excluding them evidently makes for greater "diversity."

Regards,

Pahoran

[Carborendum]

I wonder what study results for ...and other things we consider sins?

... I find repentance and obedience brings me blessings I could not imagine while hanging on to sins.

I would believe that there are some things that only pertain to us as Saints. Some things are perfectly alright for others to do. But we've made a covenant to avoid some behaviors. For these we gain additional blessings than if anyone else does the same.