Damien the Leper Posted August 2, 2012 Author Posted August 2, 2012 Well, one of the early worldwide leadership training broadcasts (ca. 2002-2004) had a series of talks by Elder Scott, President Faust, etc. quoting Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee along the lines of people mistaking the scaffolding for the building (in terms of church structure, programs, policies, etc.). A Joseph F. Smith quote stated that many aspects of the Church, including the auxiliaries, are temporary and will be done away with when they are no longer needed.Interesting. I didn't know about this. Thanks Bishop J.
rongo Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 I actually do have a photographic memory. I'm just not very tech-savvy.
Duncan Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 I actually do have a photographic memory. I'm just not very tech-savvy."Photographic memory is a misnomer. The correct term is eidetic memory, as I've told you countless times, like in May 7th during lunch. You complained your turkey was dry".Dr. Sheldon Cooper
cesc101 Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 WOW..."Everlasting Gospel In An Ever Changing Church"...me thought the "two" was meant to guide us through mortality?
CASteinman Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Maybe. I Well, one of the early worldwide leadership training broadcasts (ca. 2002-2004) had a series of talks by Elder Scott, President Faust, etc. quoting Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee along the lines of people mistaking the scaffolding for the building (in terms of church structure, programs, policies, etc.). A Joseph F. Smith quote stated that many aspects of the Church, including the auxiliaries, are temporary and will be done away with when they are no longer needed.Yes, I see it that way also. I do not think the Church = "The General Handbook of Instructions", for example. Nor do I think the Church = Ward Buildings. 1
The Nehor Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 The Church is a permanent crutch as far as we are concerned in this mortality. As for immortality, the Church will evolve and its new role will also be permanent but in a different form.Not buying it. In the New Jerusalem after the complete redemption of the Earth there is no temple there according to the Book of Revelation. If there are Sacrament Meetings in heaven I am not sure I want to go.I agree that as you advance in the gospel you need the Church less. In the same way you need the scriptures less as you are a fount of revelation yourself. The Church remains a conduit for ordinances and service. 1
CASteinman Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Not buying it.Its not for sale. In the New Jerusalem after the complete redemption of the Earth there is no temple there according to the Book of Revelation.Which is irrelevant to the issue. If there are Sacrament Meetings in heaven I am not sure I want to go.No one will force you to heaven.I agree that as you advance in the gospel you need the Church less.But that is false doctrine. In the same way you need the scriptures less as you are a fount of revelation yourself. Not the same at all -- even if it were true. Though it does not seem to be true based upon the teachings of a man who is the modern fount of the revelations of the restoration.The Church remains a conduit for ordinances and service.Which is part of the reason that your statement regarding the Church becoming unnecessary within the Gospel is false doctrine.
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Its not for sale.Then why did they give me a punchcard and promise me a free one after seven more purchases.Which is irrelevant to the issue.It is quite relevant.No one will force you to heaven.Whew.....But that is false doctrine.Nope.Not the same at all -- even if it were true. Though it does not seem to be true based upon the teachings of a man who is the modern fount of the revelations of the restoration.If you are going to quote Joseph Smith as saying something can you give the quote?Which is part of the reason that your statement regarding the Church becoming unnecessary within the Gospel is false doctrine.Nope, the Church is not required for the ordinances to take place. It is a conduit. Joseph Smith got baptized without a Church. 1
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Nope, the Church is not required for the ordinances to take place.That is not quite true, but even if it were, the Church is required now. There is no other way approved of God.It is pretty clear to me that you do not understand what the Church is, what its role is or how it will function in eternity. I am sorry about that. I hope it will not cause you to falter. Edited August 3, 2012 by CASteinman
cwald Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) 5The gospel is the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement [God's] plan in each individual's life.6Procedures, programs, and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.7Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles contained in the scriptures. As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered...." Elder Ronald E. Poelman The First Quorum of the SeventyGeneral Conference October, 1984Sounds like prophetic truth to me. Edited August 3, 2012 by cwald
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 If you are going to quote Joseph Smith as saying something can you give the quote?I did not quote him because I was not referring to a quote. I referred to his teachings -- which from the very start, from his first questioning and reading the Book of James, up to his last sermon where he quoted and expounded upon both Old and New Testaments, and at every opportunity in between, Joseph Smith deeply studied and relied upon the Scriptures for instruction and reproof. Furthermore, the scriptures were so important that Jesus commanded that they should be used by the people of the Church and translated correctly by the prophet.There was no point where Joseph Smith ever said that he had reached so much enlightenment that the scriptures were useless to him as you are preaching- and without the requisite qualifications to know anyway -- you are preaching this would happen to a great spiritual savant and prophet. But the actual teachings, acts, words and deeds of such a person -- from beginning to end -- show you to be wrong. Yet you will deny this. I am ready to read your denial of the obvious.
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Sounds like prophetic truth to me.And yet Apostles and Elder Poelman considered it either confusing or wrong enough to see it changed. Do you consider Elder Poelman and the Apostles to be fallen distinctly below you in spiritual insight and authority?
cesc101 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 thanks cwald. Elder Poelman talked of eventually becoming "less dependent" on "church programs", NOT completely independent [and I would say] on ordinances performed in the church.
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 That is not quite true, but even if it were, the Church is required now. There is no other way approved of God.Then why haven't the Three Nephites stepped forward to identify themselves and only use the Priesthood under the auspices of the Church? It is pretty clear to me that you do not understand what the Church is, what its role is or how it will function in eternity. I am sorry about that. I hope it will not cause you to falter.Please pray for my black apostate little heart.
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 There was no point where Joseph Smith ever said that he had reached so much enlightenment that the scriptures were useless to him as you are preaching- and without the requisite qualifications to know anyway -- you are preaching this would happen to a great spiritual savant and prophet. But the actual teachings, acts, words and deeds of such a person -- from beginning to end -- show you to be wrong. Yet you will deny this. I am ready to read your denial of the obvious.I didn't preach that. In fact I endorse what you said. Sorry to disappoint. If you need me to deny the obvious here you go: Your reading comprehension skills are exemplary.Man, I'm snarky tonight. I should go eat my homophobic Chik-Fil-A sandwich. Bye. 1
cwald Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 And yet Apostles and Elder Poelman considered it either confusing or wrong enough to see it changed. Do you consider Elder Poelman and the Apostles to be fallen distinctly below you in spiritual insight and authority?So which version is the truth, the one spoken over the pulpit during general conference, or the one that was rerecorded and printed in the Ensign?When was Poelman a prophet, and when was he just speaking as a man?
KevinG Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 So which version is the truth, the one spoken over the pulpit during general conference, or the one that was rerecorded and printed in the Ensign?When was Poelman a prophet, and when was he just speaking as a man?Ask God.
Damien the Leper Posted August 3, 2012 Author Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) I didn't preach that. In fact I endorse what you said. Sorry to disappoint. If you need me to deny the obvious here you go: Your reading comprehension skills are exemplary.Man, I'm snarky tonight. I should go eat my homophobic Chik-Fil-A sandwich. Bye.You jerk! How dare you?!? Oh and by the way get me a grilled chicken sandwich. They taste better. Edited August 3, 2012 by Valentinus
Damien the Leper Posted August 3, 2012 Author Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Ask God.And to think I have taken heat for saying that what is said in conference is not necessarily doctrine or 'scripture'.Oh yeah! God told me the original version is what He wanted Elder Poelman to actually say but settled for a sanitized version for the sake of the church archives and the peace of mind for the Ensign. He seems to be worried about Ensign for some reason... Edited August 3, 2012 by Valentinus 1
cwald Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Ask God.Okay. And will you support an answer I get from god as truth...if it is different than the one you think you get? Or will you make a callous comment about being a wolf in sheep clothing and how I don't understand the gospel etc etc?I made the point that I thought the original version spoken from the pulpit during general conference was "prophetic truth." And CAS made the comment that I was wrong because the apostles made him change it.So what is the point in asking God...if the answer has already been determined by the faithful members here, and If I have a different opinion or perspective...I get called out as unfaithful and an apostate? 1
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Then why haven't the Three Nephites stepped forward to identify themselves and only use the Priesthood under the auspices of the Church?How do you know that they haven't?Please pray for my black apostate little heart.I don't feel that is appropriate.
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 So which version is the truth, the one spoken over the pulpit during general conference, or the one that was rerecorded and printed in the Ensign?Well, the second version is at least official doctrine approved by apostles, prophets, seers and revelators. The first version... apparently not.When was Poelman a prophet, and when was he just speaking as a man?Apparently when his words were in contradiction with the prophets and apostles, he was just speaking as a man - despite your adoration. His corrected words have obviously met with the approval of prophets, seers and revelators.
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 How do you know that they haven't?I asked last time we chatted. More seriously I have heard a General Authority when asked about them say that they don't report to the Brethren. I don't feel that is appropriate.Okay, I will pray for you then.
cwald Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Well, the second version is at least official doctrine approved by apostles, prophets, seers and revelators. The first version... apparently not.Apparently when his words were in contradiction with the prophets and apostles, he was just speaking as a man - despite your adoration. His corrected words have obviously met with the approval of prophets, seers and revelators.Thank you. I kind of expected that response. No need to ask god. The church has already given me an answer. Edited August 3, 2012 by cwald 2
CASteinman Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 I didn't preach that. In fact I endorse what you said.OK.. maybe you don't preach that they are utterly useless. Just not so useful. Which is merely a matter of degree -- and is not how Joseph Smith lived. Joseph Smith received his revelations by reading the scriptures, getting questions and going to God in prayer. He then continued to use his new wisdom when reading the scriptures to better understand and expound upon them. The scriptures did not become less important to him, just because he also had great light from heaven -- What you have preached to me: " you need the scriptures less as you are a fount of revelation yourself" is not something that can in even the remotes manner be detected in anything Joseph Smith said or did.And I think he would know.More importantly, he would also disagree that you harmlessly leave the Church behind as you grow in Gospel knowledge... the way you indicated: "as you advance in the gospel you need the Church less". Joseph Smith would have declared that doctrine to be a stink in the nostrils of heaven because his whole life was dedicated to helping bring the Church out of obscurity and darkness. There is no way he would have turned his back on that merely to please a few ears.There is simply no way to need the Church less and at the same time improve your dedication to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It cannot be done, for Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments". The more you seek to keep those commandments, the more you will need the Church, not less.
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