What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

[Vance]

We have been specifically talking about the faith that justifies before God. Paul explains what Abraham's faith was in Romans 4:5, "and to the one who does not work but trusts in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness"

Oh, please. Abraham's faith was not in Romans 4:5. Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his works of righteousness that preceded his being counted righteous. What you are failing to grasp is that the "works" to which Paul is referring as NOT needed (or not being done by Abraham) is the works of the law of Moses, which Abraham, most assuredly did NOT do. (see Rom 3:20,21,28, Acts 13:39)

Here is the faith that is counted as righteousness described.

No, it isn't. How was Phinehas counted righteous? What did he DO?

It does not try to do its own works in order to be justified, rather it trusts in God to justify despite being ungodly.

No, they do the works of God, not their own. Silly.

One thing that seems to be clear is that this is not the faith that Mormons have-you all seem to go to great lengths to ignore or twist this verse. E.g. 'Abraham was really justified because his faith caused him to tith'. Such thinking ignores what Paul says, "and the one who does not work"

Not at all, it just better understands it. Abraham was a righteous man who was justified by his works of righteousness/obedience, NOT by his works of the law of Moses, which he didn't do because they came later.

Being counted righteous is simply another way of saying your PAST sins are forgiven (Rom 3:25)

Let me be clear this justifying faith isn't a 'just sit there' it is a falling on God crying out for grace and forgiveness recognising that by doing good works no one can be justified.

Excepting Abraham and Phinehas, of course.

Mormons seem to like to critique Paul's presentation of 'not working' faith.

Nah, we just like to put it into the context that he did, that is the works of the law of Moses.

WE DON'T NEED THE WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES to be justified.

Rather simple, don't you think.

It seems to me this comes from a misunderstanding of how sinful man is.

The misunderstanding is on YOUR part.

If it was impossible for a sinner to do enough good works to be justified and he knew that what would you have him do?

Believe in Jesus Christ,

Repent of his sins,

Be baptized,

Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost,

Endure to the end in faithful obedience.

Should he just try anyway or should he turn to God confess his own ability and trust in the way ungodly sinners can be justified that God has provided?

Nah, he should just sit back, and have a beer, and wait for God do it all. /s

The only condition that God has placed on justification is that a person trust that He justifies apart from any good works.

NOPE, apart from the works of the law of Moses.

Mormons reject this condition and seek to make that conditional on faith AND their own faithful works.

Nah, we follow the pattern Abraham, and Jesus set for us.

This is not the condition and so such a person has not been justified and with regard to the OP I cannot count them as my brother in Christ.

What ever!!

Edited August 15, 2012 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We have been specifically talking about the faith that justifies before God. Paul explains what Abraham's faith was in Romans 4:5, "and to the one who does not work but trusts in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness"

Here is the faith that is counted as righteousness described. It does not try to do its own works in order to be justified, rather it trusts in God to justify despite being ungodly. One thing that seems to be clear is that this is not the faith that Mormons have-you all seem to go to great lengths to ignore or twist this verse. E.g. 'Abraham was really justified because his faith caused him to tith'. Such thinking ignores what Paul says, "and the one who does not work"

Let me be clear this justifying faith isn't a 'just sit there' it is a falling on God crying out for grace and forgiveness recognising that by doing good works no one can be justified. Mormons seem to like to critique Paul's presentation of 'not working' faith. It seems to me this comes from a misunderstanding of how sinful man is. If it was impossible for a sinner to do enough good works to be justified and he knew that what would you have him do? Should he just try anyway or should he turn to God confess his own ability and trust in the way ungodly sinners can be justified that God has provided?

The only condition that God has placed on justification is that a person trust that He justifies apart from any good works. Mormons reject this condition and seek to make that conditional on faith AND their own faithful works. This is not the condition and so such a person has not been justified and with regard to the OP I cannot count them as my brother in Christ.

This is comical. You are painting a picture or a theology of easy believism. Born again free from sin, smoke my dope drink, my beer, go to church once a year.

How can your faith be be called faith with out works? Tell me about Matthew 25. You keep ignoring this. What do the sheep do that the goats did not do? Ill give you a hint it has nothing what so ever to do with just believing.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Zakuska]

Oh, please. Abraham's faith was not in Romans 4:5. Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his works of righteousness that preceded his being counted righteous. What you are failing to grasp is that the "works" to which Paul is referring as NOT needed (or not being done by Abraham) is the works of the law of Moses, which Abraham, most assuredly did NOT do. (see Rom 3:20,21,28, Acts 13:39)

...

No, it isn't. How was Phinehas counted righteous? What did he DO?

...

No, they do the works of God, not their own. Silly.

...

Not at all, it just better understands it. Abraham was a righteous man who was justified by his works of righteousness/obedience, NOT by his works of the law of Moses, which he didn't do because they came later.

...

Being counted righteous is simply another way of saying your PAST sins are forgiven (Rom 3:25)

...

Excepting Abraham and Phinehas, of course.

Nah, we just like to put it into the context that he did, that is the works of the law of Moses.

WE DON'T NEED THE WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES to be justified.

...

Rather simple, don't you think.

...

The misunderstanding is on YOUR part.

Believe in Jesus Christ,

Repent of his sins,

Be baptized,

Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost,

Endure to the end in faithful obedience.

Which is the exact same Pattern Paul follows in the book of Romans.

Please notice who God doesn't impute sin for...

Romans 4

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Quoting from...

Psalm 32

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about.

11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

God doesn't impute sin for "Godly" Repentant sinners!

So there is a "work" required, the work of Repentance. And here I thought there was not any righteous "No not one". no one is "godly". At least according to DJ.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Zakuska

[djholmess]

This is comical. You are painting a picture or a theology of easy believism. Born again free from sin, smoke my dope drink, my beer, go to church once a year.

How can your faith be be called faith with out works? Tell me about Matthew 25. You keep ignoring this. What do the sheep do that the goats did not do? Ill give you a hint it has nothing what so ever to do with just believing.

As I have been repeatedly saying faith is not without works, living faith produces good works. But as Paul clearly says a person is justified on account of the faith alone. Works come after justification they are not part of in. The faith that is counted as righteous is a faith that does not work but trusts in God to justify the ungodly-a faith LDS here clearly reject. This is the message of the gospel, the wrath of God is upon all who do not trust in God to justify them by faith apart from works.

Explain to me how Matthew 25 contradicts this?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I have been repeatedly saying faith is not without works, living faith produces good works. But as Paul clearly says a person is justified on account of the faith alone. Works come after justification they are not part of in. The faith that is counted as righteous is a faith that does not work but trusts in God to justify the ungodly-a faith LDS here clearly reject. This is the message of the gospel, the wrath of God is upon all who do not trust in God to justify them by faith apart from works.

Explain to me how Matthew 25 contradicts this?

Living faith does not produce works. That is no where to be found in the scriptures. What makes faith living is works as per James. You are putting the horse before the cart.

As to Matthew 25 what did the sheep do that the goats did not do? Both believed. Both knew the Master and called to him. But the goats were damned. Why?

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Vance]

Well, Jesus certainly recognized that the righteous existed.

Matt 9:13 . . . for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matt 10:41 . . . and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Matt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see . . .

Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

. . .

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Even Paul acknowledges the existence of the righteous.

Roman 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: . . .

1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, . . .

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,

I guess Jesus and Paul are liars. Who knew?

[Vance]

Hebrew Chapter 11 explains it this way.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,

5 By faith Enoch . . . : for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6. . . . for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, . . . moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

(They just sat around and waited for God to do it, right?)

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

[Anakin7]

Once again we are saved/exhalted by way of True Grace [charis] made alive in an individuals temporal/spiritual life by way of accessing/activating it by True Faith [pistis] - faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust to The Lord Of Life and our Master Christ Jesus.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited August 15, 2012 by Anakin7

[bluebell]

I'm partial to C.S. Lewis' thoughts on the whole faith verses works argument:4

“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.”

Obviously C.S. Lewis was not a mormon and i don't use the quote to imply that it means he agrees with mormonism on the subject. I use it because i think the argument about the role of grace and works in salvation that happens between mormons and non-mormons is oftentimes silly.

You can't be a follower of Christ without having faith in Him AND trying to follow His commandments. Why make it more difficult than that?

[Vance]

Why make it more difficult than that?

Because you can't exclude Mormons from being Christians if you don't?

[Zakuska]

I'm partial to C.S. Lewis' thoughts on the whole faith verses works argument:4

“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.”

Obviously C.S. Lewis was not a mormon and i don't use the quote to imply that it means he agrees with mormonism on the subject. I use it because i think the argument about the role of grace and works in salvation that happens between mormons and non-mormons is oftentimes silly.

You can't be a follower of Christ without having faith in Him AND trying to follow His commandments. Why make it more difficult than that?

Martin Luther said nearly the exact same thing...

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther

"Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther

PS. I agree RE: Silly.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Zakuska

[bluebell]

Martin Luther said nearly the exact same thing...

"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther

"Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther

PS. I agree RE: Silly.

[bluebell]

Because you can't exclude Mormons from being Christians if you don't?

I hope that's not all it is.

[Zakuska]

<snip>

This is not the condition and so such a person has not been justified and with regard to the OP I cannot count them as my brother in Christ.

I think Paul is speaking directly to you here...

Romans 14

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Christ is the Lord of every being on the whole earth. Who are you to judge your brother?

[Zakuska]

This might be pertinent to the conversation...

D&C 20

13 Therefore, having so great witnesses, by them shall the world be judged, even as many as shall hereafter come to a knowledge of this work.

14 And those who receive it in faith, and work righteousness, shall receive a crown of eternal life;

15 But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation—

16 For the Lord God has spoken it; and we, the elders of the church, have heard and bear witness to the words of the glorious Majesty on high, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.

20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.

21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.

22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.

23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day;

24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;

25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved—

26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,

27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;

31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.

32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;

33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;

34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.

35 And we know that these things are true and according to the revelations of John, neither adding to, nor diminishing from the prophecy of his book, the holy scriptures, or the revelations of God which shall come hereafter by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, the voice of God, or the ministering of angels.

36 And the Lord God has spoken it; and honor, power and glory be rendered to his holy name, both now and ever. Amen

[Calm]

I hope that's not all it is.

When did this interpretation begin and around what context? Somehow I doubt it was created solely to exclude LDS from the Christian category.

[Flyonthewall]

In your previous post to this one when talking about John 3 you said, "I believe Jesus is talking about a witness of the Spirit". If you are now saying being born again isn't a witness of the Spirit then what is it?

What I mean by a "witness of the Spirit" is that the Holy Spirit testifies to you of the truth of something. This is different than being born again. I did say that a witness of the Spirit can accompany being born again but it is not the only time the Spirit bears witness.

Why do you keep saying I think devils are born again? I have never said anything like that.

James says that even devils believe God is one-so being a monotheist by itself means nothing with regard to being a follower of God.

John says that anyone who can say Jesus is the Messiah is born again.

Can't you see the difference between these two statements? 'God is one' 'Jesus is the Christ'

So if you reject my intrepretation then what is John saying, how does believing relate to being born of God in 1 John 5:1?

Because you keep saying all you need to do to be born again is believe.

So saying Jesus is the Christ means you are born again? You sure you want to stick with that?

"4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not."

As you can plainly see, this unclean spirit worshipped Christ, and stated He is the Son of the most high God...Must be born again.

Beleif is just a part, 1John5 verses 2 and 3 have something interesting to say....KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

Of course justification is a one time event-just as Paul clearly teaches. Abraham is his primary example, "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness". When did this happen, Genesis tells us-at a point in time, not after Abraham had done a lot of faithful works but at a point where Abraham believed a promise of God. This is what Paul is teaching-and how does he describe Abraham's faith? "To the one who does not work but trusts Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness"

James is talking about a person who claims to have faith but no works. Such a faith is dead; only living faith produces works and so anyone who claims to have faith but lacks good works flowing out of that faith has no reason to think their faith is real living faith.

I have never said these works are 'perfect'-Christians do sin all the time. The evidence that your faith is living faith isn't that you never sin it is that you produce good fruit and one of these fruits is a confession and repentance of sin.

To ask was David justified shows that you misunderstand justification. Men are declared righteous because the righteousness of Christ is counted to them. David's or my justification has never been based on our good or sinful actions. It has been based on Christ being our perfect substitute.

Justification happens when we are baptized for the remission of sin. That is when we are pardoned from all our sin we have committed up until that time. We are still responsible for our behavior and in keeping the commandments.

James talks of Abraham being justified by works by offering up his son Isaac. This is because he had FAITH enough to DO as he was commanded. His faith was made alive by his action. Again, James goes to great lengths to teach that faith includes action.

You are the one saying that faith before any actions, causes someone to be born again. This is not so because the faith you claim gets one born again is dead.

Let me ask you: Can you murder someone, or commit adultery, as David did, and still be justified?

[bluebell]

When did this interpretation begin and around what context? Somehow I doubt it was created solely to exclude LDS from the Christian category.

I would be surprised by that as well.

This is just a guess, but it's probably been one of those points of contention keeping the body of Christ from being 'one' since after Christ's resurrection.

[danielwoods]

My list is from the NT. It includes the references so you can go to the NT and look them up.

Please tell me where exactly in the NT this list is found: "Believing that Christ has declared that one must 1-have faith in Him, 2-repent of their sins, 3-be baptized, 4-receive the Holy Ghost, and 5-keep having faith and keep repenting for one's entire life in order to be saved..."

Your claim is that this list is from the NT.

The case is far from closed.

The scriptures say that the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise that day, but that's all they say.

We are taught later that during the three days between Jesus' death and His resurrection, Jesus was preaching to the Spirit's in prison, and we know that Jesus also claimed He had not seen God yet when He spoke to mary in the garden. If Christ's words on the cross to the thief were meant to imply, 'today you'll be saved and be in Heaven with me', then other parts in the NT make that interpretation much less clear.

"Today you will be with me in Paradise." Means what it says. The thief was saved at that very moment. What Jesus did or didn't do following that day doesn't change the spiritual state of the thief who was forgiven all his sins. The scripture is clear.

The same is taught in the Book of Mormon-

<snip>

Christ has set requirements that we must meet in order to access His saving grace. My analogy spoke of certain requirements that must be met in order that the person have access to the car. My analogy fits.

Using the BoM to make your point only supports my point that we disagree not based on the NT alone, but because of extra-biblical influences.

And has set only one requirement to access his saving grace. Belief. Yielding our life to his.

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[danielwoods]

No, the Thief went to "paradise" and three days latter, Jesus went to "heaven" without him. So, the Thief isn't with Jesus.

CFR, Yes I'd like a specific reference supporting your statement claiming that Jesus went to Heaven without the thief on the cross.

[altersteve]

Please tell me where exactly in the NT this list is found: "Believing that Christ has declared that one must 1-have faith in Him, 2-repent of their sins, 3-be baptized, 4-receive the Holy Ghost, and 5-keep having faith and keep repenting for one's entire life in order to be saved..."

Your claim is that this list is from the NT.

That list itself is not in the New Testament, but each individual item in that list is. It's not entirely clear, though, which is why we needed further revelation to clarify.

"Today you will be with me in Paradise." Means what it says. The thief was saved at that very moment. What Jesus did or didn't do following that day doesn't change the spiritual state of the thief who was forgiven all his sins. The scripture is clear.

Exactly, it does mean what it says. And in LDS doctrine, going to paradise does not = going to heaven. But CFR that Jesus forgave the thief of all his sins; all it says is that he would be in paradise with Him. But paradise, again, is not heaven. Not in LDS doctrine, that is.

Using the BoM to make your point only supports my point that we disagree not based on the NT alone, but because of extra-biblical influences.

Exactly.

And has set only one requirement to access his saving grace. Belief. Yielding our life to his.

John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

And does not "yielding our life to his" include keeping His commandments?

Edited August 16, 2012 by altersteve

[danielwoods]

No it doesn't

The thief did not go to heaven but to paradise. Those are different places. Were was Christ for the 3 days between his death and resurrection? Remember that when Christ appeared to Mary in the garden he told her to "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father in heaven". So if he (by his own admission) had not yet gone to heaven were was he? He told the thief that on the marrow he would be in paradise with him.

And please deal with Matthew 25 and the parable of the sheep and the goats. What did the sheep do that the goats did not do?

And I love how you totally skirted every verse that blue bell put up. They directly contradict your assertion that reading the NT alone tells us that we basically don't need to do anything but have a simple belief to be saved. This is false.

First, please support your claim that the Thief didn't go to Paradise, and then to Heaven?

Second, it appears that the LDS idea of salvation is different than the one derived from the NT alone.

[altersteve]

Second, it appears that the LDS idea of salvation is different than the one derived from the NT alone.

Obviously. That's because it's NOT "derived from the NT alone." We read the Old Testament too, and we also have the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and the teachings of modern prophets to learn from. That God would be so good as to give us so much information about His gospel is wonderful.

[danielwoods]

That list itself is not in the New Testament, but each individual item in that list is. It's not entirely clear, though, which is why we needed further revelation to clarify.

I agree it's not derived from the NT.

Exactly, it does mean what it says. And in LDS doctrine, going to paradise does not = going to heaven. But CFR that Jesus forgave the thief of all his sins; all it says is that he would be in paradise with Him. But paradise, again, is not heaven. Not in LDS doctrine, that is.

Today you will be with me in Paradise. The thief was in the presence of God.

If the Thief was in fellowship with Jesus, as clearly he was, "you will be with me", indicates fellowship, then his sins were forgiven.

1 Jn. 1:3 and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

⁴ And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

⁵ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

⁶ If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

⁷ But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

So, just as all his sins are forgiven, so too are all of ours, if we are believers.

And does not "yielding our life to his" include keeping His commandments?

It comes after, it doesn't save us. It's apart of our growth or sanctification process.

[danielwoods]

Obviously. That's because it's NOT "derived from the NT alone." We read the Old Testament too, and we also have the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and the teachings of modern prophets to learn from. That God would be so good as to give us so much information about His gospel is wonderful.

I agree, that's what most of the disagreement is about in this thread.