What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

[volgadon]

Then if that is true then why say that, "we must work to our limit and then rely on Christ..."?

If you seriously (and I don't doubt you do, I'm only honestly asking because I don't get it) rely on Christ 100%, then why even mention that "we must work to our limit..."? Why not just say, "We rely on Christ alone for our salvation." and leave it at that? What is wrong with that statement?

Ok, don't move your own legs until Jesus moves them for you. In fact, don't twitch a muscle, blink, or breathe. Rely on Christ 100%.

[altersteve]

Then if that is true then why say that, "we must work to our limit and then rely on Christ..."?

We must work to our limit, which requires a reliance on Christ. We must then continue on towards eternal life, with also requires a reliance on Christ.

If you seriously (and I don't doubt you do, I'm only honestly asking because I don't get it) rely on Christ 100%, then why even mention that "we must work to our limit..."? Why not just say, "We rely on Christ alone for our salvation." and leave it at that? What is wrong with that statement?

Because that implies that no effort on our part is necessary, which is false.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go over this again. Read the Book of Mormon for more info.

[Zakuska]

Right. He that has the son has life, and the evidence of that life is a renewed heart and mind which produce the fruit of righteous actions.

However, you aren't saying that righteous actions are what give us eternal life are you? Because the passage clearly states that having the Son is what gives life.

Of course thats not what I'm saying.

And who does the Father give the son and eternal life too?

Hebrews 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 5:32

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hmmm... no obedience... no Holy Spirit, no new heart, no eternal life.

And another...

1 Peter 1

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Zakuska

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You had written:

No, the Thief went to "paradise" and three days latter, Jesus went to "heaven" without him. So, the Thief isn't with Jesus.

Are you sure the thief went to paradise? I assume you are referring to Luke 23:43. Is that what it says?

[djholmess]

Yes folks... DJHolmess is peddling the snake oil of eternal security.

I wonder how he deals with people being "washed on the inside" by the "spirit", people who have been given a "new heart", who "believe" as he puts it, who fall away?

Luke 8

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

In this parable what is the only difference between the rocky ground, thorny ground, wayside and the Good Ground?

The Good Ground brought forth "fruits meet for repentance" (aka works). I wonder how DJHolmess deals with that?

I think you miss the direction of this parable slightly. The difference is that there is only some ground that the seed is able to grow in to produce fruit. Oh and btw the parable says fruit with patience, not repentance

Either way all these verses showing that some believers fall away is an attack against a straw man. We have been talking about justification by faith alone-non of your verses from Jesus are addressing this issue.

To further explain in relation to such verses above evangelicals do not believe that justifying faith is the type of believing talked about in verse 13. Of course people can believe in things but their belief may notnbe the specific belief of Romans 4:5, 'trusting in him who justifies the ungodly' or it may be dead faith producing no works.

The true faith of Romans 4:5 is a living faith-gives rise to good works, and a enduring faith-endures to the end. So when people fall away due to the temptations of this world it is a sign their 'faith' was never true saving faith. Or when someone claims to have faith but has not works their claim to having true faith is called into question. Or when Peter admonishes people to make their calling and election sure he does so because the reason you can be sure that your faith was and is true faith is that it continues and endures to the end.

[djholmess]

Some more scriptures DJHolmess hides from:

He keeps telling us that it was "faith alone" which justifed Abraham. Ala...

Romans 4:3

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What DJHolmess misses again is what the "faith" of Abraham consisted of:

Being "ungodly" God called Abraham out of his country and Abraham responded in "obedience".

Heb 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Only AFTER Abraham obeys God's command to leave his country is he declared righteous. (Gen 15 vs Gen 12)

Yet he is not declared righteous on account of these acts. As Genesis says he believed the promise of God and his faith was counted as righteousness. You keep going away from what Gesesis actually said and from what Paul actually said about why Abraham was counted righteous.

When Paul says in Romans 4 that the one who works his wage is counted as his due are you going to be consistent with your statements and say that is how Abraham was justified-not as a gift but as something he earned through his own work?

[Anakin7]

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/613-john-6-27-29-the-work-of-faith

In His Debt Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Vance]

Nothing you have stated supports the notion that the thief is left out of Heaven.

Ok, So you don't believe in "Sola Scriptura" then. The Scriptures clearly leave the thief OUT of heaven. Your attempt to put him there is unsupported and without basis, so you can stop trying to using "the Thief went to heaven" drivel in your pogrom against Mormons.

It just isn't sell-able.

An argument from absence isn't a supported argument.

What happened to your "NT alone" mantra? If it isn't in the NT, you can't sell it.

I asked for a specific reference supporting your statement claiming that Jesus went to Heaven without the thief on the cross.

And I gave you TWO of them. Jesus went to heaven alright, but the thief didn't (according to the NT) go with him.

You've quoted many things about things Jesus did and said.

True.

However, none of your quotes show that the Thief didn't go to Heaven, that is what I'm specifically asking for, because that is what you are specifically claiming.

Ok, so you are dumping "Sola Scriptura" and your "NT alone" gibberish and just going with an unsupported and unsupportable premise to continue with your little war on Mormons.

No one here is buying it.

[Vance]

Not to Answer for Vance or Mola, but you just explained the LDS position to a T. (Marked in Bold above)

However, I've marked in red the portion of your quote that undercuts your whole argument. All of these things are "Actions" (things people DO) that is what defiles.

As it is written...

Deuteronomy 25:16

16 For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God.

And Super-Paul agrees...

Galatians 5:21

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The only difference was in what they DID.

Oh darn! There goes that Paul again, disagreeing with 21 Century American Protestant Evangelical Calvinists.

SO, OBVIOUSLY, those words don't count.

Just so you know.

[Vance]

And how do we know that we "have the son" and we in him and he in us?

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

<snip>

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Check this one out...

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Hmmm... Reborn of God are those who DO righteousness.

1 John 3

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

<snip>

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Thats an aweful lot of Commandment keeping and DOING stuff to have Christ and his word IN ya... So you can have eternal life!

But here is the final nail in the coffin...

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

More commandment keeping.

Oh my, more NT scripture that disagrees with 21 Century American Protestant Evangelical Calvinists.

You must disregard them IMMEDIATELY!!!!!

Just so you know.

[Vance]

Vance,

You had written:

Are you sure the thief went to paradise? I assume you are referring to Luke 23:43. Is that what it says?

See post #881

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Does your statement that the thief went to paradise agree with the teaching of Joseph Smith?

[ERayR]

You know, to me it just doesn't matter what you all believe about my Christianity that is between God and me and not subject to your approval or disapproval no matter what you think.

[Zakuska]

Yet he is not declared righteous on account of these acts. As Genesis says he believed the promise of God and his faith was counted as righteousness. You keep going away from what Gesesis actually said and from what Paul actually said about why Abraham was counted righteous.

When Paul says in Romans 4 that the one who works his wage is counted as his due are you going to be consistent with your statements and say that is how Abraham was justified-not as a gift but as something he earned through his own work?

Is obedience to God a work? You seem to think so.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Vance,

Does your statement that the thief went to paradise agree with the teaching of Joseph Smith?

It agrees with Paul and the early Jewish understanding of "Paradise" and the underworld, and JS.

[bluebell]

Especially if you're LDS. However, Jesus said, "My burden is light, and my Yoke is easy."

Those verses are in the NT, so i'd imagine that they mean as much to you as they do to me.

Besides that, believing that you won't become a joint-heir with Christ without wanting and trying to be obedient to Christ's commandments, and repenting when you mess up, does not make the burden heavy or the yoke difficult. Likewise, believing that all you have to do is 'believe' does not make the burden light or the yoke easy.

The burden of sin is infinitely oppressive, and the yoke of guilt and bad consquences can feel (and be) dire. Christ's yoke truly is easy and light, not because He doesn't require anything of us, but because what He does require, keeps us safe from the hardest and most difficult paths of life.

[Vance]

Vance,

Does your statement that the thief went to paradise agree with the teaching of Joseph Smith?

Of course it does.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

In 1843, Joseph Smith made the following remarks about Luke 23:43:

"There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise. King James translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 310; History of the Church 5:424-25).

The official website of the LDS Church maintains this position:

"The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits." "Paradise."

[Vance]

Vance,

In 1843, Joseph Smith made the following remarks about Luke 23:43:

"There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise. King James translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 310; History of the Church 5:424-25).

The official website of the LDS Church maintains this position:

"The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits." "Paradise."

So, from this we can deduce,

1) The Thief didn't go to heaven. Check.

2) He went to the world of the spirits of the dead, WITH JESUS. Check.

Thank you for supporting my points.

Now, are you going to engage in some nincompoopery and attempt to make a mountain out of an illusionary mole hill?

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Joseph Smith Jr., Prophet of the Restoration, first President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, author or translator of about 95% of the LDS restoration scriptures, the man who did more for the salvation of the world than anyone besides Jesus Christ, says that the thief did not go to "paradise."

Vance (No Last Name Given), whose identity, position in the LDS Church, and accomplishments for the salvation of the world are completely unknown, says that the thief did go to "paradise."

Which statement should be regarded as properly representative of the Mormon stance on this question? The answer is obvious.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should take seriously your criticism of the conventional Christian view of Luke 23:43 when in the course of making that criticism you are blatantly, explicitly contradicting your own revered Prophet.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Rob Bowman

[Zakuska]

I think you miss the direction of this parable slightly. The difference is that there is only some ground that the seed is able to grow in to produce fruit. Oh and btw the parable says fruit with patience, not repentance

My mistake, I was under the impression that "repentance" was one of the fruits?

Matthew 3:8

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Acts 26:20

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

At least Jesus and Paul seem to think so.

Either way all these verses showing that some believers fall away is an attack against a straw man. We have been talking about justification by faith alone-non of your verses from Jesus are addressing this issue.

Strawman? It was you who started promoting the heresy of OSAS (Once saved always saved).

All who are called are justified –

no drops outs

. All those who are justified are also glorified –

no drop outs

. With your LDS understanding of justification I don’t know how you can deal with such verses.

http://www.mormondia...entry1209162825

What exactly do you mean by "No Drop Outs"?

To further explain in relation to such verses above evangelicals do not believe that justifying faith is the type of believing talked about in verse 13. Of course people can believe in things but their belief may notnbe the specific belief of Romans 4:5, 'trusting in him who justifies the ungodly' or it may be dead faith producing no works.

The true faith of Romans 4:5 is a living faith-gives rise to good works, and a enduring faith-endures to the end. So when people fall away due to the temptations of this world it is a sign their 'faith' was never true saving faith. Or when someone claims to have faith but has not works their claim to having true faith is called into question. Or when Peter admonishes people to make their calling and election sure he does so because the reason you can be sure that your faith was and is true faith is that it continues and endures to the end.

And this is were there is a disconect in the Evangelical position and the scriptures. Edited August 17, 2012 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Vance,

Joseph Smith Jr., Prophet of the Restoration, first President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, author or translator of about 95% of the LDS restoration scriptures, the man who did more for the salvation of the world than anyone besides Jesus Christ, says that the thief did not go to "paradise."

Vance (No Last Name Given), whose identity, position in the LDS Church, and accomplishments for the salvation of the world are completely unknown, says that the thief did go to "paradise."

Which statement should be regarded as properly representative of the Mormon stance on this question? The answer is obvious.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should take seriously your criticism of the conventional Christian view of Luke 23:43 when in the course of making that criticism you are blatantly, explicitly contradicting your own revered Prophet.

No he isn't, not in the least Rob.

Is the "world of Spirits" synonymous with the Third Heaven or, the throne of God?

[Vance]

Vance,

Joseph Smith Jr., Prophet of the Restoration, first President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, author or translator of about 95% of the LDS restoration scriptures, the man who did more for the salvation of the world than anyone besides Jesus Christ, says that the thief did not go to "paradise."

Vance (No Last Name Given), whose identity, position in the LDS Church, and accomplishments for the salvation of the world are completely unknown, says that the thief did go to "paradise."

Which statement should be regarded as properly representative of the Mormon stance on this question? The answer is obvious.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should take seriously your criticism of the conventional Christian view of Luke 23:43 when in the course of making that criticism you are blatantly, explicitly contradicting your own revered Prophet.

So, you are going to choose nincompoopery then. Good luck with that.

Your problem is that it doesn't really matter what word Jesus actually used, (not likely Greek), THE POINT, which you want to avoid is, whatever word Jesus actually used, it wasn't heaven, or ANYTHING that could be construed as heaven. The NT clearly shows, the Thief did NOT go to heaven. It is just an Evangelical pipe dream. A failed attempt to prop up their false doctrine.

Edited to add,

So, go ahead and attack the messenger. Just see if that changes the facts in this case.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Vance

[Zakuska]

So, you are going to choose nincompoopery then. Good luck with that.

Your problem is that it doesn't really matter what word Jesus actually used, (not likely Greek), THE POINT, which you want to avoid is, whatever word Jesus actually used, it wasn't heaven, or ANYTHING that could be construed as heaven. The NT clearly shows, the Thief did NOT go to heaven. It is just an Evangelical pipe dream. A failed attempt to prop up their false doctrine.

Edited to add,

So, go ahead and attack the messenger. Just see if that changes the facts in this case.

Robs quote continues...

"I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was--This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, I Peter, 3rd chap. 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc."

How one can call Paradise (ie "Prison") heaven, like EVers do is beyond me. It is the same word used in both places. But it does match the OT too.

Psalms 68:18

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

That bolded part is pretty intresting too because it throws a wrench into the EV position on some other issues as well.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Zakuska

[Rob Bowman]

Zakuska,

You wrote:

Is the "world of Spirits" synonymous with the Third Heaven or, the throne of God?

Not in LDS parlance, no. But this isn't the issue. Joseph Smith said that "paradise" in Luke 23:43 was a modern mistranslation. Vance says the thief went to paradise; Joseph Smith says he didn't.