Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 I repeat what I wrote several pages back from Mark 9:Obviously Christ doesn't agree with you.Pooned!!!!
mfbukowski Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 That's not what I meant by tolerance, what I mean is that in any interfaith discussion regarding what is 'Christian' we each need to accept that we both have different definitions.You get the prize for the most ironic quote of the millenium.Congratulations. Or something like that. 1
thesometimesaint Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Good advice. Now read my #72 post; 4th paragraph. Agreed, kinda like the early Saints in our dispensation took the disparagement of the name Mormon and turned it into compliment.
mfbukowski Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Uh, I think that we have shown that "Offenders For A Word" does NOT "fall short".If anything this discussion has shown how completely correct DCP is on that point. 2
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 I repeat what I wrote several pages back from Mark 9:Obviously Christ doesn't agree with you.Context is key, the man was casting out demons in the name of Jesus - that man is not against JesusI could just quote Matthew 12:3030 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.The divide between us in this context is who is following/worshiping the Jesus presented in the NT - if you or I have an idea/view of someone we call Jesus but after examination of the NT it turns out that our Jesus does not correspond to who the NT presents Jesus to be then our Jesus is a different Jesus.
Calm Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 The divide between us in this context is who is following/worshiping the Jesus presented in the NT - if you or I have an idea/view of someone we call Jesus but after examination of the NT it turns out that our Jesus does not correspond to who the NT presents Jesus to be then our Jesus is a different Jesus.Please point out anything in the below that contradicts the NT: Who is Jesus Christ?Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.On January 1, 2000, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. Titled “The Living Christ,” this declaration bears witness of the Lord Jesus Christ and summarizes His identity and divine mission:“As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.“He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’ (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He ‘went about doing good’ (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.“He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.“We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.“He rose from the grave to ‘become the firstfruits of them that slept’ (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His ‘other sheep’ (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised ‘dispensation of the fulness of times’ (Ephesians 1:10).“Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: ‘His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:“ ‘I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father’ (D&C 110:3–4).“Of Him the Prophet also declared: ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!“ ‘For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—“ ‘That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:22–24).“We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—‘built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone’ (Ephesians 2:20).“We testify that He will someday return to earth. ‘And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together’ (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.“We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son” (Ensign,Apr. 2000, 2–3).Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. (John 1:14, 18; 2 Nephi 25:12; Alma 5:48; D&C 93:11; Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Symbol of Our Faith,” Ensign, Apr. 2005, 3; Gordon B. Hinckley, “A Prophet’s Testimony,” Ensign, May 1993, 94; “The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles,” Ensign, Apr. 2000, 2)Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. (Isaiah 49:26; 1 Nephi 21:26; 22:12; D&C 66:1; Preach My Gospel, 51; “The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles,” Ensign, Apr. 2000, 2)Jesus Christ is our Mediator and Advocate with the Father. (1 Timothy 2:5; D&C 45:3; Thomas S. Monson, “They Showed the Way,”Ensign, May 1997, 52; Joseph Fielding Smith, in Conference Report, Oct. 1953, 57)http://www.lds.org/study/topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 I find that these discussion are almost futile. It is so absurd to try and exclude the LDS from the title of Christians. Sure we believe different things. But that does not mean one is not a Christian. Saying that we need to believe doctrine "X" when said doctrine is not defined in the bible is comical. And that is what we have here.For instance Mormons don't believe that God and Jesus are one substance the fore they are not Christian.Any way I think I will grab some corn and watch the show unfold, again.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Context is key, the man was casting out demons in the name of Jesus - that man is not against JesusI could just quote Matthew 12:3030 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.The divide between us in this context is who is following/worshiping the Jesus presented in the NT - if you or I have an idea/view of someone we call Jesus but after examination of the NT it turns out that our Jesus does not correspond to who the NT presents Jesus to be then our Jesus is a different Jesus.You people and your "context". There is nothing in the context that takes away Deb's point. And further more your quote only backs up Deb's point. We as LDS and you as Evangelical are not against Christ. We might not believe the same things but per the scriptures being thrown around there in nothing in them that exclude, but to the contrary, seem to include both groups as followers of Christ. 3
Deborah Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Context is key, the man was casting out demons in the name of Jesus - that man is not against JesusThe divide between us in this context is who is following/worshiping the Jesus presented in the NT - if you or I have an idea/view of someone we call Jesus but after examination of the NT it turns out that our Jesus does not correspond to who the NT presents Jesus to be then our Jesus is a different Jesus.Well, you may not realize it but church members holding the Priesthood have cast out demons, have healed the sick and given other blessings in the name of Jesus. So I guess we fit the context.I'm always astounded at the narrow, un-Christian view of people like you. I wonder what Christ would think of your narrow interpretation of who worships him. 3
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Calmoriah,I believe the NT presentation of Jesus is of Him as God alongside the Father and Holy Spirit, of having always existed as God and as God He is the creator of all things including SatanLDS believe that Jesus has eternally existed as an intelligence and that he has went through a process to become as he is now. LDS also believe that Jesus is a spirit child of the Father, the brother not creator of Satan. Finally LDS believe the Jesus is a different being as the Father.Therefore because of these differences I believe everything in your post above contradicts the NT meaning anytime it uses NT phrases. So when I say ‘Jesus has suffered the punishment for sin’ because of my belief of who God is and what sin is and what Jesus suffered I mean something very different than what you mean.
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Well, you may not realize it but church members holding the Priesthood have cast out demons, have healed the sick and given other blessings in the name of Jesus. So I guess we fit the context.I'm always astounded at the narrow, un-Christian view of people like you. I wonder what Christ would think of your narrow interpretation of who worships him.Ok then, to what extent does someone have to abuse the name of Jesus before you would say they aren't Christian? Or is there such an extent. For example Jehovah's witnesses - are they Christian because they believe in Jesus?
Deborah Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 So when I say ‘Jesus has suffered the punishment for sin’ because of my belief of who God is and what sin is and what Jesus suffered I mean something very different than what you mean.You know we do believe Jesus was God before coming to mortality. The fact that he was God and condescended to come to mortality and suffer for us makes his sacrifice even more significant to LDS. I think you have no conception of what we think of Christ and how significant his sacrifice is to us. I would much rather think of Satan as the fallen brother and therefore made his choice than that a God who would create such evil. 1
volgadon Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Ok then, to what extent does someone have to abuse the name of Jesus before you would say they aren't Christian? Or is there such an extent. For example Jehovah's witnesses - are they Christian because they believe in Jesus?Yes, they are Christians. 3
Deborah Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Ok then, to what extent does someone have to abuse the name of Jesus before you would say they aren't Christian? Or is there such an extent. For example Jehovah's witnesses - are they Christian because they believe in Jesus?What the heck does it mean to "abuse the name of Jesus"? Do you really think the Savior of the world and the God of the Old Testament would be offended by such a thing? How little you must think of him as that sounds very petty.Of course the JW's are Christians if they profess to follow Christ. They may have a different understanding of how to do it but if they accept him as their Savior then they are followers of Christ. 2
Calm Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Calmoriah,I believe the NT presentation of Jesus is of Him as God alongside the Father and Holy Spirit, of having always existed as God and as God He is the creator of all things including SatanFeel free to demonstrate this by actually using the NT as was done in the LDS statement rather than just stating your opinion and dismissing without engaging LDS beliefs.After all, did you not state that actually using the NT to demonstrate one's beliefs was what was required to demonstrate who is and who isn't a Christian? Edited July 31, 2012 by calmoriah
thesometimesaint Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Calmoriah,I believe the NT presentation of Jesus is of Him as God alongside the Father and Holy Spirit, of having always existed as God and as God He is the creator of all things including SatanLDS believe that Jesus has eternally existed as an intelligence and that he has went through a process to become as he is now. LDS also believe that Jesus is a spirit child of the Father, the brother not creator of Satan. Finally LDS believe the Jesus is a different being as the Father.Therefore because of these differences I believe everything in your post above contradicts the NT meaning anytime it uses NT phrases. So when I say ‘Jesus has suffered the punishment for sin’ because of my belief of who God is and what sin is and what Jesus suffered I mean something very different than what you mean.NO! LDS believe God the Father, and Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost have always existed as the Godhead.NO! The LDS do nolt God created Satan. We believe that Lucifer "Son of the Morning" has existed as a spirit body along with everyone of us from eternity. Lucifer chose to become Satan "The Accuser".The NT itself present Jesus as a different person for his Father.That makes absolutely no sense. Edited July 31, 2012 by thesometimesaint
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 NO! LDS believe God the Father, and Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost have always existed as the Godhead.Really, that's news to me. So did JS teach that Jesus and the Holy Ghost were with the Father when he was a man on another planet? Or how did the Godhead exist before Jesus was the first born spirit son of the Father?
wenglund Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Could you give an example of communication that is improved when we call a group Christian even when they're not following Christ?Your question begs the question and ignores my point. It presupposes the very thing that is at issue--i.e. who is or isn't following Christ. This isn't for me to judge.Again, communication is improved by calling people Christian who qualify under the mutually agreeable and authoritative contemporary definition--including those who consider themselves Christian. It improves communication by rightly diminishing the importance of the label in relation to the message being conveyed, and by rightly unburdening the label of self-serving idiosyncrasies and potential propaganda abuse. It helps avoid making men an offender for a word.What will it take for you to finally grasp this?Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited July 31, 2012 by wenglund
mfbukowski Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Well, you may not realize it but church members holding the Priesthood have cast out demons, have healed the sick and given other blessings in the name of Jesus. So I guess we fit the context.I'm always astounded at the narrow, un-Christian view of people like you. I wonder what Christ would think of your narrow interpretation of who worships him.He was the one who asked last week about being able to sin and have some fun here and then make up for it in the afterlife.Martin Luther: "Sin boldly!" They don't have to try. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. Pretty slick trick, and kind of disgusting actually.If that is "Christianity" let them have it. If that is a "follower of Christ" let them have it- I want no part of it.He is doing EV's no favors. Edited July 31, 2012 by mfbukowski
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Feel free to demonstrate this by actually using the NT as was done in the LDS statement rather than just stating your opinion and dismissing without engaging LDS beliefs.After all, did you not state that actually using the NT to demonstrate one's beliefs was what was required to demonstrate who is and who isn't a Christian?This is neither the topic nor useful place (very heated) to discuss this in detail but I'm sure you're familiar with how a Evangelical would present this.1) OT teaches monotheism - only 1 God in existence; Jehovah2) The NT presents the Father as Jehovah3)The NT presents the Son as Jehovah4) The NT presents the Holy Spirit as God along with the Son and Father.All I’ve been trying to say here is that Evangelicals hold a certain belief about Jesus and our belief is different to yours and to us the difference is so great that we do not think you follow the same Jesus.In that regard I am not saying anything different to your Prophet Brigham Young"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
Zakuska Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) So someone is a Christian if they believe Jesus is the Son of God, the redeemer of the world, the only way to be saved and our object of worship along with the Father? Where do you get your definition?The Bible.1 John 2:2222 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.2 John 1:77 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.1 John 4:33 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.According to John, Mormons are For-Christ because they do not deny ANY of these things, and most enfatically sustain them and declare them.D&C 6712 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. Edited July 31, 2012 by Zakuska
djholmess Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 He was the one who asked last week about being able to sin and have some fun here and then make up for it in the afterlife.That was hypothetical - as I made very clear at the time.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 Who's to say that the Gospel you have espoused is the true Gospel, espoused by the Apostles and it is you who is accursed?Who could write his own book...but the topic is so charged, someone would would be critical with his work as well. Any book could have too much or too little info. But I assure you they will all have critics.
Zakuska Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) What the heck does it mean to "abuse the name of Jesus"? Do you really think the Savior of the world and the God of the Old Testament would be offended by such a thing? How little you must think of him as that sounds very petty.Of course the JW's are Christians if they profess to follow Christ. They may have a different understanding of how to do it but if they accept him as their Savior then they are followers of Christ.From my understanding (At least from the Literature I collected on my mission) They deny the divinity of Christ. They as the Muslims beleive he was a great teacher and a prophet. That could have changed though. We are talking 1990-1992. Edited July 31, 2012 by Zakuska
Calm Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 This is neither the topic nor useful place (very heated) to discuss this in detail but I'm sure you're familiar with how a Evangelical would present this.1) OT teaches monotheism - only 1 God in existence; Jehovah2) The NT presents the Father as Jehovah3)The NT presents the Son as Jehovah4) The NT presents the Holy Spirit as God along with the Son and Father.All I’ve been trying to say here is that Evangelicals hold a certain belief about Jesus and our belief is different to yours and to us the difference is so great that we do not think you follow the same Jesus.In that regard I am not saying anything different to your Prophet Brigham Young"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).So while you are willing to establish the rules of an interfaith dialogue on who is and isn't a Christian, you are not willing to abide by those rules and instead keep going back to simply your opinion without actual documentation from the NT. Got it. Not particularly interested in having a discussion on this anyway. I let God judge myself.
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