Digging Into The Book Of Mormon

[Calm]

As stated earlier, it is recorded in Church History that Oliver stated that Moroni identified to Joseph the name of the hill as "Cumorah."

Also:

A late account from David Whitmer is the earliest possible association of the name with the New York hill, though it is long after the fact: When I was returning to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old fashioned, wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man in a clear open place, who saluted us with "Good morning, it is very warm," at the same instant wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph I invited him to ride if he was going our way, but he said very pleasantly, "No I am going to Cumorah." This was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant, and as I looked enquiringly at Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared so that I did not see him again.[2]

Even this use of the term does not identify any specific site with Cumorah.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah

[123]

So all we had to know about the BoM geography is contained in that one statement, we can disregard anything else? There is no reason to attempt to place any other locations in the text?

Correct. Now that the location of the final Nephite battle is established, the rest of the geography can be located - with ease!

[ERayR]

As I see the arguments about the theory of the two Cumorahs unfold, it makes me wonder if the same people that think the other Cumorah is in Mesoamerica also think that Noah's flood only happened in a localized area which according to scientists probably happened that way.

And for those that believe that there is only one Cumorah and it sits on a hill in New York, believe that without any current evidence one must believe on faith alone.

Do any of these scenerios work with anyone?

I don't think you can draw that inference. Some may adhere to the LGT and believe in a local flood but others may believe the LGT and believe in a global flood. There is just no connection. Most adherents of the LGT do so on their understanding of internal factors in the Book of Mormon.

So no neither of those scenarios work for me.

[Tacenda]

Are you the type of person that always rephrases things to their own way of thinking? If so, state why?

I guess I'm not of the intelligence some are, but street smart haha.

[123]

Whitmer...

Except not every member trusts the statements of David Whitmer. We can trust official church history, or should - I mean both: the account of the rise of the church and Oliver's report of their first mission to the Indians.

I suppose Whitmer's account could be taken as supporting evidence. It's another nail in the Mesoamerican coffin.

[cursor]

You know your father's model I take it. You want readers to believe that a group of scouts left from the SW quadrant and traveled to the NE corner and saw no one????

Yeah ... I'd say that I been somewhat exposed to his model.

I don't want readers to believe anything that doesn't make sense.

Will you answer the questions that I listed above?

[Calm]

As I see the arguments about the theory of the two Cumorahs unfold, it makes me wonder if the same people that think the other Cumorah is in Mesoamerica also think that Noah's flood only happened in a localized area which according to scientists probably happened that way.

And for those that believe that there is only one Cumorah and it sits on a hill in New York, believe that without any current evidence one must believe on faith alone.

Do any of these scenarios work with anyone?

I have seen multiple variations of combinations of beliefs on these matters.

[Calm]

Correct. Now that the location of the final Nephite battle is established, the rest of the geography can be located - with ease!

And have you done this? I am very curious about your theory of geography and how it all pulls together.

What other comments of Joseph and Oliver do you refer to?

[Anijen]

How savvy for one not into BoM scholarship. There are more cobblestone, i.e. cement homes in western NY than anywhere else. There are also more ancient fortifications as described in the BoM in western NY than anywhere else. (I realize you already knew this information.)

Your sure? Where's the verse(s)? Thanks!

CFR I consider myself a semi expert on New York archaeology. I have many (too many) books written on New York archaeology, I have been to Palmyra many times, climbed the hill many times, spoke with other guides and archaeologist many times, hence I call on you to cite one cement home that dates back to the Book of Mormon. Edited July 20, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[Benjamin McGuire]

As stated earlier, it is recorded in Church History that Oliver stated that Moroni identified to Joseph the name of the hill as "Cumorah."

Actually Robuchan, this isn't what the Church History says -

This Book, which contained these things was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county.

And there we have it. The bit about Oliver stating that Moroni told this name to Joseph is speculation on 123's part. [edit: Part of the Joseph speculation bit is that there isn't much to suggest that Moroni ever came and told this to Oliver himself ....]

Ben M.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Benjamin McGuire

[Calm]

So I got a little lost in this. Who named the hill in Palmyra "Cumorah" and when and why?

It's up for debate though some are more positive than others.

123 believes, he can correct me if I am wrong, that Moroni told Joseph it was Cumorah and that Joseph told Oliver or Oliver overheard Moroni telling Joseph or found out somehow. (added: though Ben's quote of the church history would seem this is more unsupported than he claimed)

Others believe that it can't be pinpointed but that it became generally used in the community and Joseph picked up that usage to refer to the modern hill, not necessarily the final site...which 123 rebuts with his quote which I would like to see more context about.

Edited July 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[Anijen]

There are more cobblestone, i.e. cement homes in western NY than anywhere else

None that date back to the Book of Mormon.

[Anijen]

There are more cobblestone, i.e. cement homes in western NY than anywhere else

And this is why he is a Meldrum groupie. He likes to use evidence that is either fraudulent or post dates the Book of Mormon. A method he learned from Meldrum and his group.

[Calm]

Except not every member trusts the statements of David Whitmer. We can trust official church history, or should - I mean both: the account of the rise of the church and Oliver's report of their first mission to the Indians.

I suppose Whitmer's account could be taken as supporting evidence. It's another nail in the Mesoamerican coffin.

What quotes are you referring to?

If we discount Whitmer because of his loss of faith in Joseph, why don't we also discount Oliver due to his? Or do we only have to have faith in him as long as he is by Joseph's side?

[Calm]

And this is why he is a Meldrum groupie. He likes to use evidence that is either fraudulent or post dates the Book of Mormon. A method he learned from Meldrum and his group.

He said he wasn't a fan of Meldrum.

[ERayR]

He said he wasn't a fan of Meldrum.

Yet he uses Meldrum material.

[Anijen]

He said he wasn't a fan of Meldrum.

Then I apologize. I posted immediately after reading this;

And by Meldrum's success, I believe the general membership will gladly accept it, no offense.

[cursor]

Others believe that it can't be pinpointed but that it became generally used in the community and Joseph picked up that usage to refer to the modern hill, not necessarily the final site...which 123 rebuts with his quote which I would like to see more context about.

Messenger & Advocate reference

[Calm]

It's up for debate though some are more positive than others.

123 believes, he can correct me if I am wrong, that Moroni told Joseph it was Cumorah and that Joseph told Oliver or Oliver overheard Moroni telling Joseph or found out somehow.

Others believe that it can't be pinpointed but that it became generally used in the community and Joseph picked up that usage to refer to the modern hill, not necessarily the final site...which 123 rebuts with his quote which I would like to see more context about.

Found this article that gives Orson and/or Parley Pratt as well as Oliver Cowdery being the likely ones to have first named it:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705386883/Cumorah-claims-cant-sustain-Great-Lakes-model.html?pg=all

[Calm]

Then I apologize. I posted immediately after reading this;

I got the same impression so I asked him. I am hoping he will flesh out his theories enough so that we can at least tell the difference,

I am hoping he gives us a detailed summary with the most important supporting evidence included. I am finding his ideas interesting if some of his conclusions about the spiritual state of those who might disagree with him somewhat abrasive.

[Calm]

Messenger & Advocate reference

Thank you, the one I was trying to access kept bombing.

I note that it is a letter from Oliver Cowdery....which is why, it would seem, that 123 has to include Oliver as just as reliable as Joseph in this case even though as far as we know he received no personal revelation on the matter.

[cursor]

123 has left the building [banned].

[Calm]

We can trust official church history

But official church history does on occasion gets things wrong because at times they are reporting what they heard and not what they witnessed and sometimes what they heard wasn't accurate or they misheard it or misinterpreted it. For example, I believe John Taylor makes a claim that Joseph killed two men at Carthage when the mob attacked. This was the rumour going around at the time so it is not surprising that JT heard it and repeated it. However, these men have been shown to have survived their wounds, IIRC they were listed as some of the defendants and required to show up in court, maybe someone bought a new suit for one, some other details that are very vague for me, but can easily be found it one googles the murderers of Joseph Smith....I really need to sleep, missed last night due to worrying if my brother and his family who are in Aurora at the moment might have been in that theatre. Edited July 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[cursor]

The statement can be found in the Millennial Star, No. 6. Vol. I. October 1840. Parley P. Pratt was the editor.

"At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed."

[Calm]

123 has left the building [banned].

Now I will never know his theory....too bad.

However, I am not surprised that his 'quotes' weren't as well supported as he claimed. I could not find them on the FAIR website, probably can now Ben gave the actual first one. The second one probably should be anyway with the context attached that it is a statement of OC just to fill out the collection as much as possible (and who knows perhaps I've missed that one as well as I am really out of it) but understand why it was not since it does not have to be viewed as revealed knowledge, etc.

Hey, now I can turn this thing off and get some sleep!

Edited July 20, 2012 by calmoriah