Digging Into The Book Of Mormon

[Calm]

Are your testimonies based on faith? Which side of the paradigm are you two on?

I find disturbing the idea that differences of opinions about the geography of the BoM amount to a schism among active, committed members, where one side is faithful, honours the prophets, understands the doctrine, etc. and the other side....doesn't.

For those who appeal to Pres. Ivins as a 'founding father' for the faithful, "as for me and my house, we will stand on the only true and living Cumorah", perhaps consideration should also be given to what he said here:

There is a great deal of talk about the geography of the Book of Mormon. Where was the land of Zarahemla? Where was the City of Zarahemla? and other geographic matters. It does not make any difference to us. There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question. So the Church says we are just waiting until we discover the truth. All kinds of theories have been advanced. I have talked with at least half a dozen men that have found the very place where the City of Zarahemla stood, and notwithstanding the fact that they profess to be Book of Mormon students, they vary a thousand miles apart in the places they have located. We do not offer any definite solution. As you study the Book of Mormon keep these things in mind and do not make definite statements concerning things that have not been proven in advance to be true. [1]

This was given in conference a year (Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report (April 1929), 16.) after the talk given at the time of the purchase of the Hill Cumorah, which was in April 1928.

Wonder why the change in approach.

[123]

From John L. Sorenson,...

Elder Oaks (and others) continue to hold the same position today. They would not do so if the Church were officially committed to the

illogical Cumorah-is-in-New-York-and-the-whole-New-World-was-the-Book-of-Mormon-scene position.

Recognition by the committee I referred to of the merit of the argument Elder Oaks outlines led to their request to me to prepare my articles for

The Ensign

.

You're getting ahead of yourself. It is not right to clump a hill in NY & the hemispheric model together.

Your father attacked that presumption. Unfortunately he did so in Mesoamerica, which is contrary to fulfilled prophecy and statements made by Joseph and Oliver.

[123]

Wonder why the change in approach.

It is no mystery that the church is only maintaining the course it is on. Attempts to "course correct" have failed in the past and I doubt there will be new attempts any time soon.

It is instructive to know that the church quietly edited the intro to the BoM to correct the presumptive hemispheric viewpoint. I am trying to get the church to reprint the Messenger & Advocate article. We'll see what members say after they read that!

[Calm]

Here is the thing; whatever tree our ladder is against will not effect our salvation, we will be corrected if wrong. I am not weak in my faith, and I certainly am not an apostate. Wherever my ladder leanings my faith will not be affected.

Off topic, but I've gotten thinking about the implications of this debate....

The scriptures talk about people being judged by the measure they met out. For those of us who don't make someone's opinion of geography an issue of faithfulness or apostasy, it wouldn't seem to matter if we are wrong because we have not condemned in any spiritual or eternal sense others if we believe they were wrong. But for those who do choose to turn a position on BoM geography into a test of faithfulness, worthiness, etc. and have placed those who they see as wrong in the house of the apostates, those who have rejected and belittled the prophets, what happens to them if by chance their position is the one that turns out to be wrong? If one uses the measure they've created, would this mean they are truly the apostates after all and therefore the ones having to repent in the next life and seek forgiveness for their presumption to declare as an ultimate truth that which was false?

[Calm]

It is no mystery that the church is only maintaining the course it is on. Attempts to "course correct" have failed in the past and I doubt there will be new attempts any time soon.

It is instructive to know that the church quietly edited the intro to the BoM to correct the presumptive hemispheric viewpoint. I am trying to get the church to reprint the Messenger & Advocate article. We'll see what members say after they read that!

So you are just dismissing the 1929 Conference talk by Pres. Ivins while accepting as pure doctrine his 1928 Conference Talk? Why the difference in your approach?

[123]

So you are just dismissing the 1929 Conference talk by Pres. Ivins while accepting as pure doctrine his 1928 Conference Talk? Why the difference in your approach?

Ivins or anyone else you quote is not equal to the statement by the prophet or BoM witness Cowdery. Unless you can find a contrary statement by Joseph or Oliver stating that Cumorah or the final Nephite battle was somewhere else, this case is closed.

[123]

From John L. Sorenson...

Regarding “Cumorah

One thing that recently came to light is the fact that Moroni was still in Lamanite territory 20 years after the battle. In other words, he was not walking hundreds of miles to NY. He was IN New York all the while:

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord. (Moroni 1)

1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. (Moroni 10)

[cursor]

You're getting ahead of yourself. It is not right to clump a hill in NY & the hemispheric model together. Your father attacked that presumption. Unfortunately he did so in Mesoamerica, which is contrary to fulfilled prophecy and statements made by Joseph and Oliver.

Did you only read the last paragraph?

Did you miss the rest of the post?

What my father did was to indicate that there are past and current GAs who consider that thoughtful adjustment to some of the traditional ways that we look at and interpret the ancient record are appropriate -- that includes the possibility that the hill in NY state may not actually be the final battleground of the Jaredites and Nephites.

[Calm]

My testimony is based on faith, that's my paradigm. You people are questioning my faith in Joseph and Oliver, the first church history and BoM prophecy on current weather patterns? Where is your paradigm? Even if yours is not on faith, respect the fact that others will not be accepting the nephite record on theories of man, their interpretations, or whether current weather patterns match 2000 years ago. Have respect for the BoM witnesses and prophet, please.

I have no issue if others choose to base their beliefs on whatever. I don't condemn them as having little faith, of not following the prophets, of elevating the arm of flesh over the arm of the Lord, etc. and I don't call them apostates or engaging in apostasies no matter how small or insignificant. I may question and even disagree with their interpretations of the prophets' words, but I don't doubt their faith and desire to seek out God in any way if they say they are faithful believers.

My only issue with anyone holding any geographical theory is if they stake out the high spiritual ground for only themselves and others like them and not only deny that those who differ in opinion from them may stand besides them, but seem to do their best to push them down the mountain, casting them into the depths by equating their perspectives as apostasies or rejections of prophets or nondoctrinal.

I see the warning of the prophets in regard to this, for example Pres. Ivins '29 conference talk where he states "It does not make any difference to us. There has never been anything yet set forth that definitely settles that question". This one is especially clear:

President Smith spoke briefly and expressed the idea that the question of the situation of the city [of Zarahemla] was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on he question it would not affect the salvation of the people: and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel . . . . [He] again cautioned the students against making the union question–the location of the cities and lands–of the equal importance with the doctrines contained in the book . . . . [President Anthony H. Lund] advised those present to study the Book of Mormon, and be guided by the advice of President Smith in their studies.[1]

http://en.fairmormon...ealed_geography

Since I am concerned with my salvation and those that I care about, I will do what my faith instructs me to do and that is listen to what the Prophets have instructed us to do in the matter and not to those claiming to speak for the prophets.

Edited July 20, 2012 by calmoriah

[123]

Did you only read the last paragraph? Did you miss the rest of the post?

What my father did was to indicate that there are past and current GAs who consider that thoughtful adjustment to some of the traditional ways that we look at and interpret the ancient record are appropriate -- that includes the possibility that the hill in NY state may not actually be the final battleground of the Jaredites and Nephites.

As to land size sure, but as to contracting the prophet's statement of where Cumorah and the final Nephite battle was no.

[123]

bla, bla, bla

You're making this more than necessary. You either believe Joseph and Oliver or you don't. Feel free to share whether you do.

[cursor]

Unless you can find a contrary statement by Joseph or Oliver stating that Cumorah or the final Nephite battle was somewhere else, this case is closed.

Might that mean that you're done posting now?

[USU78]

Might that mean that you're done posting now?

[ERayR]

As to land size sure, but as to contracting the prophet's statement of where Cumorah and the final Nephite battle was no.

Or is it the prophets statement that is contradicting the Book of Mormon which was translated by the gift and power of God. Do you see what you have done. Your dogmatism has put you in a place where you now have to choose between prophets. Joseph Smith Jr. because of what is in the Book of Mormon as to land size and Joseph Fielding Smith's declaration about the new York "Cumorah".

[123]

Might that mean that you're done posting now?

Why don't you start a new thread called "The Errors of My Father." I'll be happy to bring you up to speed - for the sake of truth.

[Calm]

I am trying to get the church to reprint the Messenger & Advocate article.

You should start a thread and post it as soon as you hit 25 posts. Perhaps you will get a hint of how it might affect members if it does get reprinted.

[ERayR]

Why don't you start a new thread called "The Errors of My Father." I'll be happy to bring you up to speed - for the sake of truth.

My but we don't lack for hubris do we?

[123]

Or is it the prophets statement that is contradicting the Book of Mormon which was translated by the gift and power of God. Do you see what you have done. Your dogmatism has put you in a place where you now have to choose between prophets. Joseph Smith Jr. because of what is in the Book of Mormon as to land size and Joseph Fielding Smith's declaration about the new York "Cumorah".

LOL, nice try. Again, Joseph and Oliver never wavered from the location of the final battle. It's not dogmatism, it's called faith.

[cursor]

Unless you can find a contrary statement by Joseph or Oliver stating that Cumorah or the final Nephite battle was somewhere else, this case is closed.

John L. Sorenson wrote:

Exactly what Joseph Smith believed at different times in his life concerning Book of Mormon geography in general is also indeterminable. Only a few clues remain. For example, while the church was headquartered in Nauvoo, Joseph read a best-selling book of his day by John L. Stephens,

Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan

, which John Bernhisel had sent to him from the East. In a letter dated 16 November 1841, the Prophet thanked Bernhisel and wrote about the book that "of all histories that had been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct" and it "supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon." Ten months later, the

Times and Seasons

printed an enthusiastic review of the Stephens volume. John Taylor was the editor, although Joseph Smith had shortly before announced his own editorial responsibility for the newspaper. The unnamed writer of the review (probably Wilford Woodruff) stated that "we have just learned . . . [that] the city Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land [of Guatemala, whose ruins Stephens was reporting]."

[123]

You should start a thread and post it as soon as you hit 25 posts. Perhaps you will get a hint of how it might affect members if it does get reprinted.

Already tested the waters here. I don't feel this sample represents the general membership. And by Meldrum's success, I believe the general membership will gladly accept it, no offense.

[ERayR]

LOL, nice try. Again, Joseph and Oliver never wavered from the location of the final battle. It's not dogmatism, it's called faith.

IN the memorable words of Joseph Smith "There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation," Joseph once said. "It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand" (History of the Church, 6:184).

[123]

John L. Sorenson wrote:...the city Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land [of Guatemala, whose ruins Stephens was reporting]."

FYI, Zarahemla does not match "Cumorah." There is no contrary statement I assure you.

[123]

IN the memorable words of Joseph Smith "There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation," Joseph once said. "It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand" (History of the Church, 6:184).

I'm confused, cause if you look at history, the members certainly did embraced many new ideas. I have faith that when the general membership reads a reprint of the first history that Joseph and Oliver published, they will be amazed a small cell of academics were ever allowed to froth at the mouth.

[cursor]

One thing that recently came to light is the fact that Moroni was still in Lamanite territory 20 years after the battle.

Yes, that's correct ... that would be near the hill Cumorah, in Vera Cruz, Mexico.

And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. (Moroni 10:2)

And, at what point does he actually bury the plates? And where exactly does he eventually bury them?

[Calm]

You're making this more than necessary. You either believe Joseph and Oliver or you don't. Feel free to share whether you do.

I believe them in all their inspired teachings dealing with my salvation that the Spirit has witnessed to me and I expect to receive more witnesses over time. I accept as binding teachings the Church as a whole has accepted as binding as Joseph instructed us to do so. I trust his revelations, I respect their teachings but I don't follow them blindly without checking first what is revelation, what is inspiration, what is intelligence and wisdom, what is educated guessing, what is traditional understanding, what is guessing and what is just sheer speculation and what of all of that has been witnessed to me by the Lord. If I did follow blindly, without question of Joseph or Oliver, I would have to follow along with Oliver out of the faith for a time and I would have preferred, I hope, to have stayed with Joseph.

I don't believe either of them has ever said I need to accept their opinions on issues not dealing with my salvation, such as what are the best flowers to plant in the spring or what is the best Sunday family meal or why the stars sparkle so in the dead of winter or what makes people sick or even how old the universe is since I believe Joseph calculated it rather than had it revealed to him. I don't see a need to build my house in identical fashion to Joseph's or comb my hair like his or even translate using lexicons in the same way he does (I put his translations through the Power and Gift of God above my own of course).

Have you any evidence from Joseph that I should do any different?