CASteinman Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I cited this quote because it eloquently explains why the vast majority of reputable churches subscribe to these standards of financial transparency.And yet the reasons you give do not apply to the Church of Jesus Christ. They are more appropriate for Churches not led by Prophets called of God.For example:"Public disclosure protects Christian ministry from the danger of claiming ownership of God’s gifts."The Church does indeed own the funds. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. Trying to avoid claiming ownership would be lying. So this reason does not apply." It also protects us from the temptation to acquire assets as our lasting goal. "It actually does not do that, but what DOES do that is having a Prophet and 12 Apostles leading the Church according to its mission with a set of quorums (FP, 12, 70) that are accountable to each other."Furthermore, the availability of financial statements promotes responsible Christian stewardship over assets as donors seek to make monetary investments in the work of the Kingdom."Fair enough for a Church not operated by Prophets and Apostles accountable to each other and to God, but for the LDS Church, the responsible Christian Stewardship is already there.
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Other than signing "Analytics" to a post you hope to have taken seriously, this has got to be the single largest admission against interest I've ever seen on these boards.Your willingness to teach the Gospel is predicated on a financial statement!?!Whose heart then is set on "riches"?I got news for ya buddy- if the lack of a "transparent financial statement" is coming between you and the fullness of the Gospel, you need to rethink the priorities in your life.I am not fake, nor do I care a single iota about my image anywhere. That will be the first of many very blunt statements I make. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. I am a pretty nice guy and am usually tactful so I expect nobody to be offended.If you read my post what I mean will be clear. "The peace of mind that would come from a financial statement would be invaluable. It would make me more willing to teach my children the gospel without reservations." Does it say anywhere that I do not teach my children the gospel? When I say reservations I mean that the finances of the church are always in the back of mind. I think things such as, what could they be hiding?SImilar to how I was skeptical about having a single man leading a bunch of people. Then I found out decisions are made by consensus. That removed much of my worry I had also. Like that I am sure the Lord will allievate this worry I have eventually.It would be easy to say I have very little faith and have been accused of that often. That to be honest is far from the truth, I would say I have pretty darn good faith*. It is just, I am the first member in my family to join the Church. I could either be leading my family to heaven or hell(both here and eternity). That is why I need to make sure, before I die, that this is the religion I want my posterity to follow. Don't want to be the guy who ruins my family.*not tooting my own hornBeen in church two years and have experiencd cult like behavior from members. That is something that also makes me worried about everything.
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 What other churches do not disclose their finances? Is this a normal occurence or are we the oddball.
selek1 Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) I am not fake, nor do I care a single iota about my image anywhere. Interestingly enough- no one here claimed you were.Why then, would that be your first, knee-jerk line of defense?That will be the first of many very blunt statements I make. Blunt is generally good. I might have to try it sometime instead of being so gosh darn circumspect with my opinions.If you read my post what I mean will be clear. "The peace of mind that would come from a financial statement would be invaluable. It would make me more willing to teach my children the gospel without reservations." Does it say anywhere that I do not teach my children the gospel? When I say reservations I mean that the finances of the church are always in the back of mind. I think things such as, what could they be hiding? To be blunt, this argument doesn't improve for its repetition. You are still stating that your willingness to teach the Gospel is predicated on the arbitrary (and ultimately, irrelevant) actions of others.You have admitted (twice now) that rather than being set upon Gospel truths- such as redepmtion, salvation, and exaltation- your mind is occupied with what others might be doing with their money.That's not a very flattering picture.SImilar to how I was skeptical about having a single man leading a bunch of people. Then I found out decisions are made by consensus. That removed much of my worry I had also. Like that I am sure the Lord will allievate this worry I have eventually. The only problem I have with this idea is that it places you solely in the role of victim. It implies an unhealthy level of passivitiy- that you will not change through your own efforts, but will wait until you are acted upon.That, unfortunately, is contrary to both the Gospel and the Parable of the Talents. Or as my grandmother was fond of saying, "What we are is God's gift to us. What we become is our gift to God."It would be easy to say I have very little faith and have been accused of that often. That to be honest is far from the truth, I would say I have pretty darn good faith*. It is just, I am the first member in my family to join the Church. I could either be leading my family to heaven or hell(both here and eternity). That is why I need to make sure, before I die, that this is the religion I want my posterity to follow. Don't want to be the guy who ruins my family. Gee- I can't imagine why anyone would think you lack faith.That's a real head-scratcher.Of course, the fact remains that there is only one good reason to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that isn't because of the choir, or the nifty underwear, or the optional AmWay membership.The only valid reason to join the Church is because the Lord has confirmed to you that it is what it claims to be.And obsessing about what's going on just outside your earshot, or behind closed doors, or in the next ward, or in the accounting ffice at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building isn't going to make it any easier to hear his words.Been in church two years and have experiencd cult like behavior from members. That is something that also makes me worried about everything.Really? Wow. Our experiences have been quite different.For the record, I'm also a convert, and the only member of my family to have joined the Church. I have, in fact, been a member for over twenty years.Ironically, I've encountered more "cult-like" behavior from evangelical relations, Democrat friends, and even my teen daughters over the latest boy-bands than I have in the Church.Of course, the phrase "cult-like behavior" is delightfully vague. If you're interested in discussing specifics, I'm willing to start a separate thread for you.There's no need to derail this one. Edited July 15, 2012 by selek1
CASteinman Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 If you read my post what I mean will be clear. "The peace of mind that would come from a financial statement would be invaluable. It would make me more willing to teach my children the gospel without reservations."How do you know that? What if they are spending the money in ways that you do not approve?
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 How do you know that? What if they are spending the money in ways that you do not approve?There is already something I do not approve of. The fact that they only put a small portion toward humanitarian aid. It was not hidden information though you can go to lds.org statistics and figure that out easily. If it was me I would put atleast ten percent towards humanitarian aid.I just want to make sure no money is getting stolen. Such as LDS contratctors getting a ridiculous amount of money.
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Anways back on topic, do other churches keep their financial records private?
Analytics Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) And in your eyes the LDS church is not reputable?That’s the topic of a different thread, isn’t it? But to answer it, I think it is reputable.But it was precisely the point being made by the source you quoted.I disagree. There point is to explain to Christians why they ought to follow the standards of being transparent.The "vast majority of reputable churches". Are you finally admitting that the standard you propose is not, in fact universal?Just as somebody who isn’t perfect can still be a good person, a church can be a “reputable church” and not always do what’s right.Again, your mind-reading skills are more than a little sub-par. My quarrel is with your new catechism, not the Better Business Bureau.You have a quarrel with the fact that I agree with the standards of the BBB, but not with the BBB itself. Got it.What other churches do not disclose their finances? Is this a normal occurence or are we the oddball.Most churches fully disclose their finances. The Catholics don’t. Benny Hinn doesn’t. The Moonies don’t. Here is a list of over 1,600 Evangelical churches that do. Edited July 15, 2012 by Analytics
Hawkmoon Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Few critics think that way, and you are totally missing the point. As a general principle, every church or organization that solicits donations from the public should provide their audited financial reports to anybody who asks. That is simply the right thing to do, irrespective of whether or not I or anybody else agrees or disagrees with the organization’s mission and how it goes about pursuing it.Unitarian churches ought to disclose their financials to everybody who asks. Evangelical Churches ought to disclose their financials. NPR radio stations ought to. The United Way ought to. The Red Cross ought to. Harvesters Food Bank ought to. And the Mormon Church ought to.I have no reason to believe that any of these organizations are doing anything unscrupulous with their money. But that doesn’t change the fact that like all organizations that ask for donations from the public, they ought to provided audited financial reports to anybody who asks, because doing is the right thing to do.Actually, it quite apparent from the part I bolded above you are the one missing the point. The Church is NOT an organization that solicits donations from the public, and I think you rather understand that. The Church is an organization that requires tithes for attendance to the temple, but does not require it to be a member. How you have twisted this to be soliciting for donations from the public is beyond me-- the Church never sends out donation requests to the public... nor does it send out solicitations to its membership. You can pay or not, and if you are not a member they do not ask for any "donations" whatsoever. So, no they should not disclose thier financials to anyone who asks.... this is simply silly.
Hawkmoon Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 If I looked at the Church as just an organization I donate to, then I understand that perspective.I look at the Church as my life and something that could affect my family forever(if I choose). The peace of mind that would come from a financial statement would be invaluable. It would make me more willing to teach my children the gospel without reservations.Huh? Are you serious? If a financial statement would give me "invaluable" peace of mind about "something that could affect my family forever"... then I would start doing some serious soul-searching... I'm just saying. 1
Hawkmoon Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) In an analysis how Mormons compare to everybody else when it comes to charitable giving, I doubt you’d say tithing doesn’t count because the church isn’t a charity.In any case, the principle is the same.No it isn't. Just because you keep saying it doesn't it make it true. The Church is not a charitible institute nor does it solicit funds the way you imply. It closer to voluntary dues than to what you suggest. Edited July 15, 2012 by Hawkmoon
Hawkmoon Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) The doctrine of the Church is to have "Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." This "Faith that our fallible leaders are using tithing money in a way we deem appropriate" might be many good things, but it's not doctrine. Openness and accountability are also principles in the Church.But even if that were not the case, it's quite possible that open books would require more faith from the tith-paying members, not less, so that would be a good thing.You keep acting as if people here really believe in the infallibility of fallible leaders mantra you keep repeating, but it is simply a distraction from the discussion since no one is implying such.While I do agree in principle with "Openness and accountability"-- in practice how would this work? Are we a democracy? Who holds who accountable? If we do not like a deal, or where money is allocated, can we nix it? Would you care to explain this in detail? Edited July 15, 2012 by Hawkmoon
CASteinman Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 There is already something I do not approve of. The fact that they only put a small portion toward humanitarian aid. It was not hidden information though you can go to lds.org statistics and figure that out easily. If it was me I would put atleast ten percent towards humanitarian aid.So , knowing even more things like that -- will make you happier and more content?
CASteinman Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I just want to make sure no money is getting stolen. Such as LDS contratctors getting a ridiculous amount of money.But that is not your job or calling. Its not up to you to determine that, and in any case, a financial report would not show you that. However, to ease your mind on the matter, the Church conducts on-going continuous audits, by finance professionals including Certified Public Accountants who are at risk of both criminal and professional penalties if they should abuse or misuse their position -- or even if they should be merely incompetent. The legal system insists that they be honest.
Thinking Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 There is already something I do not approve of. The fact that they only put a small portion toward humanitarian aid. It was not hidden information though you can go to lds.org statistics and figure that out easily. If it was me I would put atleast ten percent towards humanitarian aid.It is interesting to note that the amount of humanitarian aid is no longer listed on the statistics page.http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics/
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 It is interesting to note that the amount of humanitarian aid is no longer listed on the statistics page.http://www.mormonnew...and-statistics/Different statistics pagehttp://www.lds.org/church/statistics?lang=eng
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Huh? Are you serious? If a financial statement would give me "invaluable" peace of mind about "something that could affect my family forever"... then I would start doing some serious soul-searching... I'm just saying. Have done plenty of soul searching and love this church, especially the Gospel. Just because I want a financial statement released does not mean I am not loyal.Another big reason I want it released is missionary work and to strengthen members faith. Every question mark you remove in a persons faith, will draw them closer to the Savior. One thing, even a financial statement, could every tear somebodys faith.
Anijen Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) Have done plenty of soul searching and love this church, especially the Gospel. Just because I want a financial statement released does not mean I am not loyal.Another big reason I want it released is missionary work and to strengthen members faith. Every question mark you remove in a persons faith, will draw them closer to the Savior. One thing, even a financial statement, could every tear somebodys faith.The problem with this is; the church is run by its leaders through the Lord. There will always be a number of people who always think they know what is best. Some members unknowingly weaken other peoples faith with their constant nagging about matters that they can not control or is not under their authority.If some members do not like the way the church is run they are welcome to go to a different church that they approve of. Edited July 15, 2012 by Jeff Holt 2
Deborah Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Another big reason I want it released is missionary work and to strengthen members faith. Every question mark you remove in a persons faith, will draw them closer to the Savior.Not sure how a person's "faith" is strengthened by removing question marks in a person's faith. That is after all what faith is: knowing something is so without all the evidence for it. One either believes that the Lord has appointed his leaders to do his work, or he doesn't. Having accepted that they are called of the Lord, then one accepts their stewardship, and the fact that they report their stewardship to God, not to the clamoring dissidents. They are responsible to God and that is a responsibility I think they take very seriously.I used to be concerned about how a person on the street would spend the $5 I gave him for a meal. Then I realized I am accountable only for my actions and judged on those, not the actions of another. I have the philosophy if someone is desperate enough to hold up a sign "will work for food" then it doesn't matter what he needs the money for. By the same token I have the philosophy that once I donate my earnings to the church then I am not longer responsible or accountable for how that money is used. And thankfully I may say because that has to be an overwhelming responsibility to use wisely the funds given by others in the name of the Lord. 3
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 The problem with this is; the church is run by its leaders through the Lord. There will always be a number of people who always think they know what is best. Some members unknowingly weaken other peoples faith with their constant nagging about matters that they can not control or is not under their authority.If some members do not like the way the church is run they are welcome to go to a different church that they approve of.So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.We won't tolerate these kinds of comments. Expect to be banned if it happens again.
Thinking Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Different statistics pagehttp://www.lds.org/c...istics?lang=engThanks.
Deborah Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.If you think that the leaders of the LDS Church are of the same ilk then I suggest you go elsewhere. Smiley aside that is a very insidious comparison. 3
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Do not want to go else where, even if I wanted to I am compelled to stay. That whole thing about free will does not apply in my situation nor in many other peoples.It is pretty clear I do not think a Prophet of God would try to make us commit suicide. I just recognize that an organization ran by men could have made make mistakes. Judas betrayed Jesus, what is stopping one of them from betraying members? Do I think it is happening, doubt it. You just never know and it is better to be safe then sorry.
rodheadlee Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.Isn't there something about fruits and how you shall recognize that which is of the Lord?
tyler90az Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 That’s the topic of a different thread, isn’t it? But to answer it, I think it is reputable.I disagree. There point is to explain to Christians why they ought to follow the standards of being transparent.Just as somebody who isn’t perfect can still be a good person, a church can be a “reputable church” and not always do what’s right.You have a quarrel with the fact that I agree with the standards of the BBB, but not with the BBB itself. Got it.Most churches fully disclose their finances. The Catholics don’t. Benny Hinn doesn’t. The Moonies don’t. Here is a list of over 1,600 Evangelical churches that do.Not that is right but that seems to make sense. They both believe opening their books will bring to much scrutiny.
Recommended Posts