Church Finances Redux: Why Should The Books Be Opened?

[Deborah]

I just recognize that an organization ran by men could have made make mistakes. Judas betrayed Jesus, what is stopping one of them from betraying members? Do I think it is happening, doubt it. You just never know and it is better to be safe then sorry.

You are right men make mistakes and as I reported on another thread I know of a Bishop who was relieved of duties due to embezzling funds, not because of any evil intent but because he was personally desperate and intended to pay it back. This is to let you know when and if such things happen they cannot go unnoticed for long. There are too many internal checks and balances. Ask any financial clerk of a ward. I think you are better off worrying about other things and let those in charge deal with these matters.

[Hestia]

So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.

Please review board guidelines, This falls under Godwin's Law or "Do not use offensive terms for things we hold sacred."

Also keep personal why I left church stories out.

[CASteinman]

Different statistics page

http://www.lds.org/c...istics?lang=eng

I want it released is missionary work and to strengthen members faith. Every question mark you remove in a persons faith, will draw them closer to the Savior. One thing, even a financial statement, could every tear somebodys faith.

But it would not increase Missionary Work or strengthen members' faith. It would add question marks and draw people away from the Savior.

Every single reason that you mention as wanting would not be helped by release of Financial Statements and would increase contention, criticism and a lack of faith.

So, if you do indeed really love the Church and its members, you would not want this.

[CASteinman]

Del -- already covered by others.

Edited July 15, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Do not want to go else where, even if I wanted to I am compelled to stay. That whole thing about free will does not apply in my situation nor in many other peoples.

It is pretty clear I do not think a Prophet of God would try to make us commit suicide. I just recognize that an organization ran by men could have made make mistakes. Judas betrayed Jesus, what is stopping one of them from betraying members? Do I think it is happening, doubt it. You just never know and it is better to be safe then sorry.

Regardless of how you feel about it, you have your own will and you have the freedom to choose.

Read the Revelations of God. There is a system revealed for handing and preventing corruption in the Church. That system does NOT include the rank and file membership.

Is the method revealed by God just not good enough for you?

[CASteinman]

Have done plenty of soul searching and love this church, especially the Gospel.

I stopped believing in this church.

So you love the Church, you just do not believe in it?

And the prophet would not lead mass murder but still a comparison of the prophet to a mass murderer comes right to mind?

Edited July 15, 2012 by CASteinman

[tyler90az]

I believe in the church once again. It is ok to believe in something and not expect it to be perfect. The finance thing is just something that should be done from my perspective. I am obviously not the one makes that decision, although I trust those that do. At the same time, this is a dscussion board so I stated my opinion. Nobody important is going to read this thread and my opinion matters not. It is just my opinion and interesting to discuss with other people.

[CASteinman]

I believe in the church once again. It is ok to believe in something and not expect it to be perfect. The finance thing is just something that should be done from my perspective. I am obviously not the one makes that decision, although I trust those that do. At the same time, this is a dscussion board so I stated my opinion. Nobody important is going to read this thread and my opinion matters not. It is just my opinion and interesting to discuss with other people.

Fair enough.

But the reasons you put behind your opinion do not make sense.

[tyler90az]

An organization that I will give 10% of my income to for the rest of my life will not open their finances. It just makes me wonder a little bit why they will not.

Knowledge>faith

Think about what we should strive for, the second comforter. That would gives us 100% knowledge and eliminate all faith. Like that, the ideal would be to have knowledge that nothing funny is going on with the money.

[Deborah]

An organization that I will give 10% of my income to for the rest of my life will not open their finances. It just makes me wonder a little bit why they will not.

Sigh. You have no understanding of faith, knowledge or the purpose of the Second Comforter.

I look at the buildings we have, the manuals that have had so much put in them (I'm thinking particularly of the RS/Priesthood manuals on the teachings of the prophets), the seminaries, institutes, BYU, and all the many other things that are being done and I know where the finances are going.

[CASteinman]

O I have my daughters back... A few days after I went and told the Bishop I believed in the Church again I got my kids back

This makes no sense to me if you are in the USA. A Bishop has no intrinsic legal authority to determine custody of children. What country do you live in?

[tyler90az]

Part of it has to do with the fact you guys believe when somebody leaves the Church they will receive Gods wrath. It is that belief that makes you happy when bad things happen. Makes some even want to work towards having bad things happening. Such as taking away kids and taking my vehicle so I can not drive to work. Lets jsut my wife is easily manipulated by her parents and yes I blame the Church. It is the Church that fosters this type of behavior. It may not want it to happen but it does nothing to curb it.

[Sleeper Cell]

O I have my daughters back... A few days after I went and told the Bishop I believed in the Church again I got my kids back

I am glad that you have your daughters back. Is your 20 month old daughter still suffering from her disorder?

[tyler90az]

That is interestin

Search for the name of the Church at http://www.cra-arc.g...s/menu-eng.html

You'll see multiple Canadian wards and branches listed with financial statements.

Does that make everybody happy now?

That is interesting they released the information in Canada. It seems like everything adds up pretty nicely as I suspected.

[Analytics]

And yet the reasons you give do not apply to the Church of Jesus Christ. They are more appropriate for Churches not led by Prophets called of God...

What's ironic about this is that the Evangelicals say they have the responsibility to adhere to the highest levels of transparency and accountability because they are God’s church. In contrast, you say that you are exempt from such practices for the exact same reasons.

[CASteinman]

What's ironic about this is that the Evangelicals say they have the responsibility to adhere to the highest levels of transparency and accountability because they are God’s church. In contrast, you say that you are exempt from such practices for the exact same reasons.

I don't see the irony. It seems consistent to me. Well, except that they are not adhering to the highest levels of transparency and accountability. They can't.

[CASteinman]

So if this stuff really did happen do you feel I am justified in some of my beliefs about the Church? Such as that type of behavior being cultish and needs to be eradicated from the Church we love?

I already told you... I do not trust your perceptions to be tightly bound to objective reality.

[The Grimace]

Just wondering: Do all of you who feel the church is not a charity still claim tithing as a charitable donation on your tax returns?

[ERayR]

Have done plenty of soul searching and love this church, especially the Gospel. Just because I want a financial statement released does not mean I am not loyal.

Another big reason I want it released is missionary work and to strengthen members faith. Every question mark you remove in a persons faith, will draw them closer to the Savior. One thing, even a financial statement, could every tear somebodys faith.

In over 50 years of activity in the church in at least 5 states I have never heard anyone concerned about church financial statements before I came to this forum.

[ERayR]

So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.

Wrong church. You better reread the article.

[ERayR]

Do not want to go else where, even if I wanted to I am compelled to stay. That whole thing about free will does not apply in my situation nor in many other peoples.

It is pretty clear I do not think a Prophet of God would try to make us commit suicide. I just recognize that an organization ran by men could have made make mistakes. Judas betrayed Jesus, what is stopping one of them from betraying members? Do I think it is happening, doubt it. You just never know and it is better to be safe then sorry.

Another error. Free will always applies.

[ERayR]

Sigh. You have no understanding of faith, knowledge or the purpose of the Second Comforter.

I look at the buildings we have, the manuals that have had so much put in them (I'm thinking particularly of the RS/Priesthood manuals on the teachings of the prophets), the seminaries, institutes, BYU, and all the many other things that are being done and I know where the finances are going.

And I think about my testimony and it doesn't really matter. As one poster put it , they can burn it in the streets if they want.

[ERayR]

That is interestin

That is interesting they released the information in Canada. It seems like everything adds up pretty nicely as I suspected.

On a local unit basis. I think if you want to ask your bishop he would give you all but the welfare information(that's confidential).

[The Grimace]

I wonder what people think they will find out if the Church opens up its books. We know that not all of the church's wealth goes to humanitarian aid, we know that a good portion of the church's wealth is tied up in for-profit business, and we know that GAs receive a stipend, and we know that a good portion of the money donated is used to operate the church.

[Anijen]

So...there was this guy... who made people drink a bunch of koolaid to kill themselves.

Totally inappropriate comment, seriously a Jim Jones comparison to my post? An apology is due. Edited July 16, 2012 by Jeff Holt