Bom Meltingpot

[blackstrap]

There has been some discussion as to whether the names Lamanite and Nephite were cultural or political divisions.In reading the books of 3rd and 4th Nephi we encounter a time when,after Christ's appearance there was a fusing of all the people and there were no longer Lamanites or Zoramites etc.,but that they were all of one heart and lived with all things in common. The original separation into "ites" were named after ancestors ie. tribally.People seemed to hold their lineage as very important.After Christ,that seems to have lessened considerably for about 200 years,then,probably as a response to a university course on historical grievances, the people slowly separated again into past lineage allegances and adopted the old names. Have there been examples of this behavior in other places?I could use some help from the history buffs on the board. Thanks.

[bu11fr0g]

Yugoslavia comes to mind. Iraq has had this as well and is probably closer to the bom

[Aliwe]

There has been some discussion as to whether the names Lamanite and Nephite were cultural or political divisions.In reading the books of 3rd and 4th Nephi we encounter a time when,after Christ's appearance there was a fusing of all the people and there were no longer Lamanites or Zoramites etc.,but that they were all of one heart and lived with all things in common. The original separation into "ites" were named after ancestors ie. tribally.People seemed to hold their lineage as very important.After Christ,that seems to have lessened considerably for about 200 years,then,probably as a response to a university course on historical grievances, the people slowly separated again into past lineage allegances and adopted the old names. Have there been examples of this behavior in other places?I could use some help from the history buffs on the board. Thanks.

One time some colonists from Eastern Europe went to the Levant and revived the name of the northern kingdom of the Hebrews (Israel) which had not existed since 722 BC. Except they didn't say they were Israelites but Israelis. Minor change.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Are you talking about the disappearance of previously important lineage-based identities through the medium of a common faith or about the later re-emergence of the terms as non-lineage-based identities?

[Brant Gardner]

Personally, I doubt that anyone every forgot their lineages. That would be fairly strange. That was the reason that they could reemerge as the major organizational unit with the larger political structure was removed. The point in 4 Nephi is that there was no divisive political units, not that there were no lineage organizations. When we see "-ites" reemerging, it was as a political entity, not a lineage.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Very interesting, as usual, Brant...... I know Nibley in "Since Cumorah" also described in many places (as you have noted in your commentary) that the people were "called" Lamanite, or Nephite, but as to what they really were, or who they really were is not discussed. One can call one something but that does not prove a lineage of blood.......

[volgadon]

One time some colonists from Eastern Europe went to the Levant and revived the name of the northern kingdom of the Hebrews (Israel) which had not existed since 722 BC. Except they didn't say they were Israelites but Israelis. Minor change.

You are talking of the country where I was born, where I was raised. The Biluists, Hovevei Tzion, and other Zionists didn't revive the "name of the northern kingdom of the Hebrews (Israel) which had not existed since 722 BC." Israel was the name of the land and the people. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) encompassed the territories of both kingdoms, and Am Israel (the people/nation of Israel) is a synonym for Bnei Israel (children of Israel/Israelites). All three terms had wide currency throughout the centuries. In 1947-48, there was a debate on what to name the soon-to-be state. Zion was rejected because not all the citizens were Zionists. Eretz Israel was rejected in order not to confuse the larger geographical entity with the smaller, political one. Judah was rejected for similar reasons to Zion, not all citizens of Israel were Jews and not all Jews were citizens.

[Aliwe]

In 1947-48, there was a debate on what to name the soon-to-be state. Zion was rejected because not all the citizens were Zionists. Eretz Israel was rejected in order not to confuse the larger geographical entity with the smaller, political one. Judah was rejected for similar reasons to Zion, not all citizens of Israel were Jews and not all Jews were citizens.

There's another interesting anecdote from May 14, 1948. Truman recognized the State of Israel eleven minutes after David Ben-Gurion's declaration of independence in Tel Aviv, before the name had even been chosen. In the official US document of recognition, the typed words "Jewish State" are crossed out, and "State of Israel" written by hand to replace it.

[volgadon]

There's another interesting anecdote from May 14, 1948. Truman recognized the State of Israel eleven minutes after David Ben-Gurion's declaration of independence in Tel Aviv, before the name had even been chosen. In the official US document of recognition, the typed words "Jewish State" are crossed out, and "State of Israel" written by hand to replace it.

I don't know what you are trying to say with that, but Eliahu Eilat, the Jewish Agency's man in Washington, knew of Truman's decision before it was given, before even the state department did, so it is not as if Truman drafted and delivered a statement in under 11 minutes..

[Aliwe]

I don't know what you are trying to say with that, but Eliahu Eilat, the Jewish Agency's man in Washington, knew of Truman's decision before it was given, before even the state department did, so it is not as if Truman drafted and delivered a statement in under 11 minutes..

Many Evangelical Protestants have latched onto the creation of the State of Israel as somehow fulfilling prophesy in Ezekiel 28 or something, and the name Israel is very important to them. It's probably the only "supernatural" thing they have ever witnessed. But David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, et al. were atheists. There are strongly religious Jews in the settlements and places like Yad Mordechai butt up against Gaza where it rains rockets, but the thing remains a purely human endeavor. It's fascinating to see how a dog-and-pony show can be seen as miraculous as long as the right symbolism is displayed.

[Calm]

how a dog-and-pony show

You are labeling the creation of the modern state of Israel which cost many their lives and took heroic efforts to resettle parts of the land a "dog and pony show"?

[Aliwe]

You are labeling the creation of the modern state of Israel which cost many their lives and took heroic efforts to resettle parts of the land a "dog and pony show"?

What some call "heroic efforts" on behalf of taking up the "White Man's Burden" others deem the discredited concept of colonialism. In the twenty years following World War II the great powers were dismantling their overseas colonies in Asia, Africa, and South America even as the Zion Project was booting their colony up in the Middle-East. But when I referred to a "dog and pony show" I was thinking of the meme of the State of Israel as the fulfillment of Bible prophesy concerning the return of the Jews to their native land. Bear in mind, the major prophets wrote during the Babylonian Exile or in the ten years just prior, when Judah was a vassal state of Babylon. Their words were fulfilled in 538 BC when Cyrus resettled them at home and allowed the temple to be rebuilt. There was another prophet, Jesus, who said they would be scattered again, this time by the Romans, and he did not speak of another return after that. But certain Protestant teachers with an view of Scripture as inerrant (and selective memory on secular history) insist that the words of Jeremiah and Isaiah and Ezekiel must be fulfilled to the letter, and so the Jews must return to their land. But there's no supernatural there there. God didn't sign off on it.

[volgadon]

Many Evangelical Protestants have latched onto the creation of the State of Israel as somehow fulfilling prophesy in Ezekiel 28 or something, and the name Israel is very important to them. It's probably the only "supernatural" thing they have ever witnessed. But David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, et al. were atheists. There are strongly religious Jews in the settlements and places like Yad Mordechai butt up against Gaza where it rains rockets, but the thing remains a purely human endeavor. It's fascinating to see how a dog-and-pony show can be seen as miraculous as long as the right symbolism is displayed.

I still am not sure what you are getting at as you seem to change tack a lot. At first you were saying that Jewish settlers were an example of people purposely reviving the name of a political entity which ceased existing thousands of years before. When I pointed out that the State of Israel isn't named after the northern Kingdom of Israel, but uses the name of both the land and the people, a name in continuous use for centuries, you mentioned Truman recognising the state 11 minutes after it was declared. After being shown that Truman's decision was known ahead of time, you came up with this. There were overt atheists and extremely observant Jews, but there were also many in between, such as Ben-Gurion. To call him an atheist is to grossly over-simplify things. He was more of a deist than anything, deeply influenced by the Jewish traditional outlook. Yad-Mordechai, BTW, is a kibbutz founded by Hashomer Hatzair, not religiously observant Jews. To say that it is a purely human endeavor is not a judgement call I think you are qualified to make.

What some call "heroic efforts" on behalf of taking up the "White Man's Burden" others deem the discredited concept of colonialism. In the twenty years following World War II the great powers were dismantling their overseas colonies in Asia, Africa, and South America even as the Zion Project was booting their colony up in the Middle-East.

What some call a "white man's burden" and "discredited concept of colonialism," others call an empty and wildly inaccurate use of emotionally-laden terms in order to force a negative reaction. Calling the modern settlement of Jews in Israel colonialism is silly. Colonialism presupposes a a mother state (or city) which founds a colony in order to provide resources for itself. Zionism was a nationalist movement advocating a return to the historic homeland of a scattered people. Read Bialik's "The City of Slaughter," his reaction to the pogrom in Kishinev. Let me know if Kipling's poem is more reflective of the mood of Zionism than this.

ARISE and go now to the city of slaughter;

Into its courtyard wind thy way;

There with thine own hand touch, and with the eyes of

thine head,

Behold on tree, on stone, on fence, on mural clay,

The spattered blood and dried brains of the dead.

Proceed thence to the ruins, the split walls reach,

Where wider grows the hollow, and greater grows the

breach;

Pass over the shattered hearth, attain the broken wall

Whose burnt and barren brick, whose charred stones reveal

The open mouths of such wounds, that no mending

Shall ever mend, nor healing ever heal.

There will thy feet in feathers sink, and stumble

On wreckage doubly wrecked, scroll heaped on manuscript,

Fragments again fragmented—

Pause not upon this havoc; go thy way.

The perfumes will be wafted from the acacia bud

And half its blossoms will be feathers,

Whose smell is the smell of blood!

And, spiting thee, strange incense they will bring—

Banish thy loathing—all the beauty of the spring,

The thousand golden arrows of the sun,

Will flash upon thy malison;

The sevenfold rays of broken glass

Over thy sorrow joyously will pass,

For God called up the slaughter and the spring together,—

The slayer slew, the blossom burst, and it was sunny

weather!

Then wilt thou flee to a yard, observe its mound.

Upon the mound lie two, and both are headless—

A Jew and his hound.

The self-same axe struck both, and both were flung

Unto the self-same heap where swine seek dung;

Tomorrow the rain will wash their mingled blood

Into the runners, and it will be lost

In rubbish heap, in stagnant pool, in mud.

Its cry will not be heard.

It will descend into the deep, or water the cockle-burr.

And all things will be as they ever were.

[Aliwe]

There were overt atheists and extremely observant Jews, but there were also many in between, such as Ben-Gurion. To call him an atheist is to grossly over-simplify things. He was more of a deist than anything, deeply influenced by the Jewish traditional outlook.

Atheist or deist both work. The modern state of Israel was not set up under the initiative of a prophet like Samuel.

Yad-Mordechai, BTW, is a kibbutz founded by Hashomer Hatzair, not religiously observant Jews.

Thank you for that correction, volgadon, that is useful to me. March 26th, 1948, the Haganah completely abandoned the coastal highway running south from Tel Aviv and Yad Mordechai was completely cut off. Only four private aircraft maintained contact between north and south, carrying basic supplies and newspapers. That must have been a very frightening time.

What some call a "white man's burden" and "discredited concept of colonialism," others call an empty and wildly inaccurate use of emotionally-laden terms in order to force a negative reaction. Calling the modern settlement of Jews in Israel colonialism is silly. Colonialism presupposes a a mother state (or city) which founds a colony in order to provide resources for itself. Zionism was a nationalist movement advocating a return to the historic homeland of a scattered people.

Unfortunately, the end result was the same for the people who already lived there. Perhaps we could call the Jaredites heroic for settling an empty land, but even the formation of United States required the displacement of the Original Inhabitants, as colonialism always does.

[volgadon]

Atheist or deist both work.

Astrophysicist, ballet choreographer, same difference, right?

The modern state of Israel was not set up under the initiative of a prophet like Samuel.

Who said it had to be? The first return from exile wasn't effected by a prophet like Samuel, either.

Thank you for that correction, volgadon, that is useful to me. March 26th, 1948, the Haganah completely abandoned the coastal highway running south from Tel Aviv and Yad Mordechai was completely cut off. Only four private aircraft maintained contact between north and south, carrying basic supplies and newspapers. That must have been a very frightening time.

It was a scary time, but as an important correction, the Haganah did not abandon the southern coastal highway, it was cut off by local Arab forces.

Unfortunately, the end result was the same for the people who already lived there. Perhaps we could call the Jaredites heroic for settling an empty land, but even the formation of United States required the displacement of the Original Inhabitants, as colonialism always does.

You might look at a map and see that the majority of Jewish settlements prior to 1948 were on uninhabited and uninhabitable lands. I think the deportation of Palestinian villagers was a mistake, but it grew out of the horrors of civil war more than it ever did your notion of colonialism.

[Aliwe]

You might look at a map and see that the majority of Jewish settlements prior to 1948 were on uninhabited and uninhabitable lands. I think the deportation of Palestinian villagers was a mistake, but it grew out of the horrors of civil war more than it ever did your notion of colonialism.

I have been warned (not by moderators) that this particular line of dialogue could result in my expulsion from the board, so respectfully, I will have to break it off here. I will say only that although I am not a fan of certain things that were done in history (Deir Yassin massacre, King David Hotel, USS Liberty) I am also deeply horrified by the Shoah, the Unspeakable, which is almost too much to bear reviewing. So I hope you are not one who tars others with the anti-Semite brush too quickly.

[volgadon]

I have been warned (not by moderators) that this particular line of dialogue could result in my expulsion from the board, so respectfully, I will have to break it off here. I will say only that although I am not a fan of certain things that were done in history (Deir Yassin massacre, King David Hotel, USS Liberty) I am also deeply horrified by the Shoah, the Unspeakable, which is almost too much to bear reviewing. So I hope you are not one who tars others with the anti-Semite brush too quickly.

Truth be told, you were the one steering it down this way, you also left a few lovely parting shots.

[Aliwe]

Truth be told, you were the one steering it down this way, you also left a few lovely parting shots.

Just one more thing, when you said: "It was a scary time, but as an important correction, the Haganah did not abandon the southern coastal highway, it was cut off by local Arab forces."

In the fall of 1947 armed Bedoin nomads surrounded a number of isolated settlements in the south, including Yad Mordechai. The Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion swore that not one single settlement would be evacuated. Armored cars produced in Tel Aviv were used to secure the water pipelines that these settlements depended on, and to send weapons and reinforcements through the Bedoin lines.

Some communities, however, were beyond reach and had to fight alone and unaided, and by the end of the month, the Haganah decided that it was too difficult to support them, Ben-Gurion's oath notwithstanding. They ordered the settlers to evacuate, but this order was ignored by the folks in the Kibbutz.

Why am I interested in this one place, Yad Mordechai?

It lay just west of the road that linked Gaza to the Egyptian beachhead at Majdal. Egypt hurled two infantry battalions, one armored battalion, and an artillery battalion against them at dawn on May 24 for an attack that lasted five days.

Much enemy armor was taken out with the PIAT (Projectile, Infantry, Anti- Tank). Those tanks which managed to breach the Yad Mordechai perimeter were set alight at close range with Molotov Cocktails or attacked with hand grenades whose fragments would enter the tank through the view slit, wounding the crew and forcing them to retire. Other tanks were taken out with mines, and still others broke down and were dragged out of range by armored cars.

But there were just too many Egyptians, and the shelling never ceased. After five days the ammunition was spent. Surviving fighters carried the wounded through the Egyptian lines under the cover of darkness, along with the remaining settlers.

Yad Mordechai was abandoned, and in the morning the Egyptians burned it to the ground. But during those five days of resistance Tel Aviv was saved from being overrun. The stubborn defense at Yad Mordechai gave Tel Aviv time to bring in reinforcements and firm up the defensive line on the road between the city and Gaza.

There, right there, was the turning point of the War of Independence. Very cool stuff.

[Calm]

You are giving a history lesson about Israel to an Israeli?

Edited June 25, 2012 by calmoriah

[volgadon]

You are giving a history lesson about Israel to an Israeli?

I know, right? Especially ironic as my mom lived in a neighbouring kibbutz for a while and met several people who had been there in 1948. A few of my childhood toys were even made by one of them.

[Aliwe]

You are giving a history lesson about Israel to an Israeli?

Naw, I'm trying to cover my bum so I don't get booted as a Nazi.

[blackstrap]

Now that we have moved the topic sufficiently,I thank you for your responses and consider the thread closed. Talk among yourselves.

[volgadon]

Naw, I'm trying to cover my bum so I don't get booted as a Nazi.

Ok, I see what you are getting at. You are trying to justify your attitude as anti-Zionist rather than antisemitical. Seen that before. It might have worked were it not for many of your other posts!

[Aliwe]

Ok, I see what you are getting at. You are trying to justify your attitude as anti-Zionist rather than antisemitical. Seen that before. It might have worked were it not for many of your other posts!

Sticks and stones. Perhaps things will be made clear between us on the Other Side, which will be the next opportunity for us to make things clear between us.