Fair Strives To Be Objective

[Tarski]

This, ironically, is an expression of faith, and thus a promotion of your own faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No it is an expression of a personal value--a preference. Have you become so religionized that you can't help but use religious terms to describe ordinary preferences?

I like modern jazz more than country music. (More expression of faith?)

[Analytics]

Why are the moderators allowing Evergrow to go on like this? He claims antis lie, and then he goes and lies about how much antis lie. Who is this guy?

Remember a poster who went by "Lee Universe" in years past? He's back.

[Xander]

I wanted to share this article about FAIR from the San Francisco Chronicle. Not exactly a newspaper I would have expected to see something like this. It was nice to get some more background information. What do you think, folks?

Why be surprised that a publisher in the business of publishing paid advertisements, actually published a paid advertisement?

Who do you think paid for this article to be published?

And how can someone or some thing claim to be striving for objectivity when he/she or it absolutely refuses to accept the possibility that he/she/it is wrong on the most crucial point that necessitates a subjective interpretation of all relevant data? (i.e. that the Church is in some way "true" no matter what)

I'm sure there are some folks in the organization who think they're making progress at appearing more objective, but I don't see it. Not saying it hasn't happened, just that I've seen no evidence of it. And I don't see any evidence in this article either.

"We have Republicans, Democrats, libertarians, socialists, members with same sex attraction, Ex-FLDS, Ex-anti-Mormons, and for a while we even had one Catholic."

Well if FAIR is anything like it was when I was a member, this is because it doesn't have much of a filtering process. It accepts apologetics from pretty much anyone who has an apologetic theory he or she wants to make known to a wider audience.They were generally grateful to anyone who wanted to spend any amount of time of this kind of stuff. If there were more TBM conservatives willing to engage in apologetics, FAIR would welcome them just the same.

"I will admit we have a bias," Gordon said, explaining that FAIR members believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is really the ancient Church of Jesus Christ restored in the latter days through Joseph Smith. However, he further explained that in defending the Church, FAIR members strive for an objective approach to the evidence and answers based in the best scholarship available.

Oh? Then why is it that FAIR ignores the plethora of non-LDS scholarship on the subject of things like the Book of Abraham? They are constantly making authorities out of those who have been proved wrong time and time again. Gee and Nibley are the usual suspects, but now they have exalted people like Ash and Muhelstein as an authority on the subject simply because they share the same testimony about the truthfulness of the Church. Kerry's recent, and ludicrous claim about the "Abraham" papyrus, saying it said "Abraham upon his couch" was enough to make the entire dept of Egyptology at the University of Chicago laugh out loud. It says no such thing, and FAIR did not "strive for objectivity" here to verify the claim. They simply accepted it and ran with it because it supported the kinds of things they wanted to do. FAIR published this and sold this DVD which included a mountain of other apologetic claims from the usual suspects at FARMS, without nary a response from the critics. In fact, some of the FAIR speakers in that DVD video completely misrepresented the critical position in a way that you'd expect one politician to misrepresent his opponent during campaign season. I started a post about this chastizing Mike Ash for his comments and he never responded. Striving for objectivity? Says who? FAIR?

These claims are as meaningless as saying "I strive to be more charitable," without producing testimonies of those who have received your charity.

When asked by an audience member if apologists really understand the experiences of those who are struggling with their faith, or who have left the Church, Gordon noted that many members of FAIR have family members and friends who have left the church, and some FAIR members themselves have lost their faith and then returned to the Church.

No references produced for the latter, and no acknowledgment that some FAIR apologists actually become vocal critics because of their involvement with apologetics.

Gordon acknowledged that he has even struggled with various issues in the past. He invoked the story of the twelve disciples of Jesus who refused to leave Christ's side even after others were offended by Christ's doctrine and left. Christ asked if the twelve would also leave, and Peter said "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Gordon concluded by saying, "Within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I find the words of eternal life."

And so the rest of us are a bunch of faithless, traitor-cowards who simply don't love Jesus enough - as if this has anything whatsoever to do with standing my the Church in spite of the plethora of disproven truth claims. Yes, this is pretty much the standard attitude towards those who have left the Church.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Xander

[Wiki Wonka]

Why be surprised that a publisher in the business of publishing paid advertisements, actually published a paid advertisement?

Who do you think paid for this article to be published?

A point of clarification: this was a press release, not an article. FAIR has issued many press releases in the past. There was nothing different about this one except that it was issued through PRWeb. FAIR usually issues its press releases through a religion news service rather than PRWeb.

A press release is paid for only once. In this case, the company that was paid was PRWeb. A release will typically cost a few hundred dollars depending upon how many words are in it.

Once a press release is distributed, it is the choice of individual news outlets to decide whether or not to post it on their site. In this case, SF Chronicle Online chose to do so. It was done with no input from FAIR, and no payment was made to the SF Chronicle.

I have issued many business-related press releases over the past few years. I would typically target the high-tech hotspots and the release would appear in about 90 online publications within about two days after it was issued. It has to do with the subject being addressed, and how interested the news outlet is in carrying that press release.

WW

[wenglund]

No it is an expression of a personal value--a preference. Have you become so religionized that you can't help but use religious terms to describe ordinary preferences?

I like modern jazz more than country music. (More expression of faith?)

Since you seem unaware, the term "faith" is not exclusively religious in nature, nor is it mutually exclusive of preferences. Indeed, preferences may be a function of secular faith--particularly when those secular preferences involve the word "should," and subjectively suggest what is most "honorable".

Stating that you like modern jazz more than country music, is a expression of preference. However, stating that one should like modern jazz more than country music because doing so is more honorable, is a statement of faith.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 10, 2012 by wenglund

[Tepui]

"FAIR strives to be objective" In word only. And in press releases.

• “To be clear, FAIR advocates no particular theory of Book of Mormon geography.” [1]
  
• "The Hill Cumorah located in New York state is a drumlin: this means it is a pile of gravel scraped together by an ancient glacier. The geologic unlikelihood of a cave existing within the hill such as the one described..." [2]
  

To be clear, FAIR is a conglomerate of concatenated confusion.

[1] http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/MisguidedS.html

[2] http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah

[Wiki Wonka]

"FAIR strives to be objective" In word only. And in press releases.

• “To be clear, FAIR advocates no particular theory of Book of Mormon geography.” [1]
  
• "The Hill Cumorah located in New York state is a drumlin: this means it is a pile of gravel scraped together by an ancient glacier. The geologic unlikelihood of a cave existing within the hill such as the one described..." [2]
  

To be clear, FAIR is a conglomerate of concatenated confusion.

[1] http://www.fairlds.o...MisguidedS.html

[2] http://en.fairmormon...gy/Hill_Cumorah

How exactly does pointing out the geographic nature of the Hill Cumorah in New York advocate a particular geographic theory?

FAIR lists over 70 different Book of Mormon geography theories:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_geography/All_models_by_name_table

WW