Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) This is from MattC, not me. Since he is a new poster, he cannot start his own thread. I am also going to cut and paste into this thread the other response before they get deleted, please be patient and do not post until I am done.===================================I was raised as a non-denominational Christian. The small differences that often divide churches are kind of a bummer, and separate people from worshipping in the same building. The problems arise when the teachings of any given church go beyond or contradict the Bible. Obviously, the Bible cautions us to be wary of such teachings. Several months ago, I stepped back from my own faith and started exploring others.I have been interested in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I've spent months studying material that the LDS church has published. But, having been a traditional Christian for the entirety of my life, I have many questions about the Mormon faith. After talking extensively with nine LDS missionaries and many other members, these questions have still not been answered. Rather than methodically considering these questions with me, their answers are all the same: “INSERT PERSONAL TESTIMONY, END WITH: …read The Book of Mormon, and pray that God will reveal it to you as truth.”I'm afraid this repetitive and evasive answer is growing old. Real questions have real answers. By encouraging me to believe in Mormon teachings without researching them, are you saying we should accept the Mormon faith without understanding it? The questions below are all derived from literature published by the LDS church. Is there anyone who can provide genuine answers to these genuine questions?Why did Joseph Smith teach that the moon was inhabited by people? Clearly it is not.“'The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the quaker style and are quite general in style, or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.' This is the description of them as given by Joseph the seer, and he could 'See' whatever he asked the father in the name of Jesus to see.” (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Latter Day Saint. Vol 3, page 166, typed copy at Utah State Historical Society)“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather this it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 13, page 271)“Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon islands of the sea, and – to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.” (The Young Woman's Journal, 1892, Vol 3, pages 263-264)[*]Why does the LDS church teach that God used to be a mortal man who lives on the planet Kolob, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God has always been and always will be God? BIBLE: “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” (Psalm 90:2)“For I am the Lord, I change not...” (Malachi 3:6)BIBLE: “I am the Alpha (Greek: beginning, first) and the Omega (Greek: the end, last, final),” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1: BOOK OF MORMON: “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” (Moroni 8:18)JOSEPH SMITH: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret…It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us… Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…" ("King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 342-345) JOSEPH SMITH: "He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being." (Journal of Discourses 7:333)JOSEPH SMITH: “The Lord made known to him the following facts: That Kolob is the first creation, and is nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. It is the first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. This measurement is according to celestial time. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which by the Egyptians was called Jah-oh-eh. Oliblish, so called by the Egyptians, stands next to Kolob in the grand governing creation near the celestial, or place where God resides. This great star is also a governing star and is equal to Kolob in its revolutions and in its measuring of time. Other grand governing stars were also revealed to Abraham.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny, 1954, page .461.)Why does the LDS church teach that there are many Gods, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God is the only God?BIBLE: “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)BIBLE: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” (James 2:19)BIBLE: "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any otherRock? I know of none." (Isaiah 44: BIBLE: "I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." (Isaiah 45:5) BIBLE: "Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." (Isaiah 45:21) BIBLE: “There is no one like you, LORD, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.” (1 Chronicles 17:20)BIBLE: “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4:39) BOOK OF MORMON: “And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said Yea,there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.” (Alma 11:26-29)JOSEPH SMITH: “If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and...God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also...And where was there ever a father without first being a son?...If Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also?” (Plurality of Gods sermon, Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol 6, pages 473-479)BRIGHAM YOUNG: "The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself." (Prophet Brigham Young, Salt Lake Tabernacle sermon, August 8, 1852, Journal of Discourses Vol 3, page 93)BRIGHAM YOUNG: "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, page 5).There's a remarkable amount of archaeological evidence that gives the Bible credibility as an accurate historical record. Why is there no archaeological evidence to substantiate the people, places, events, and artifacts in The Book of Mormon?"No archaeological discovery has ever been made that contradicts or controverts historical statements in Scripture." (New York Times, Dr. Nelson Gluech, Book Review - The Bible, Oct. 18, 1956). "...there exists today not one unquestionable find of archeology that proves the bible to be in error at any point." (Henry M. Morris, The Bible and Modern Science, p. 95) “The Book of Mormon is clearly a work of great spiritual power; millions of read and revered its words, first published by Joseph Smith in 1830. Yet Smith's narration is not generally taken as a scientific source for the history of the Americas. Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past, and the Society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon.” (National Geographic Society, correspondence to Institute for Religion Research, August 12, 1998)"The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book." ("Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon," Smithsonian Institution, Spring 1986)[*]Why does the LDS church still include Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris as credible witnesses to The Book of Mormon's legitimacy? All three, and other witnesses, later rejected Joseph Smith as a true prophet and left the Mormon church.“If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.' In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness.” (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, page 27)“I did not say that Oliver Cowdery and John Whitmer had not endorsed the Doctrine and Covenants in 1836. They did endorse it in 1836; I stated that they 'came out of their errors (discarded the Doctrine and Covenants), repented of them, and died believing as I do to-day'...now, in 1849, the Lord saw fit to manifest unto John Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and myself nearly all the errors in doctrine into which we had been led by the heads of the old church. We were shown that the Book of Doctrine and Covenants contained many doctrines of error, and that it must be laid aside;...They were led out of their errors, and are upon record to this effect, rejecting the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.” (David Whitmer, An address to Believers in The Book of Mormon, 1887, pages 1-2)“One of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon [Martin Harris], yielded to the spirit and temptation of the devil a number of years ago – turned against Joseph Smith and became his bitter enemy.” “Martin Harris...and about one or two who came with him, that gave them plainly to see that the frankness and honest simplicity of true hearted brethren were not with them. A lying deceptive spirit attends them....they are of their father, the devil, who was a liar from the beginning, and abode not in the truth. The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him. “(Latter Day Saints' Millennial Star, Vol. 8, November 15, 1846, pages 124-128)[*]Joseph Smith's original version of Doctrine and Covenants was called Book of Commandments. Melvin J. Peterson, in his BYU thesis comparing the books, found that 703 words have been changed, 1,650 words have been added, and 453 words have been deleted since Smith's original revelations in Book of Commandments. If these were true revelations from God, why were 2,806 changes needed in the two years before it was republished under the name Doctrine and Covenants? Why do Mormon leaders claim that no changes were ever made, even though you can place the books side by side and compare the differences yourself?“...I know that the Church is true, and that the original doctrines as they were revealed from heaven have not been changed.” (Mormon Apostle LeGrand Richards, letter to Parley P. Pratts, May 11, 1966) NOTE: LeGrand Richards had not even been born when the Book of Commandments was rewritten. How could he be so sure?“The gospel as the Mormons know it sprang full-grown from the words of Joseph Smith. It has never been worked over or touched up in any way, and is free of revisions and alterations.” (No, Ma'am, That's Not History, Dr. Hugh Nibley, pages 61-62)Why doesn't the LDS church teach that Joseph Smith was involved in a gun fight, where he killed two men just before his death? "I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." (John Taylor, History of the Church, Vol 7, pages 100-103) “As he struck the floor he exclaimed emphatically, "I am a dead man." Joseph looked towards him and responded, "Oh, dear brother Hyrum!" and opening the door two or three inches with his left hand, discharged one barrel of a six shooter (pistol) at random in the entry, from whence a ball grazed Hyrum's breast, and entering his throat passed into his head, while other muskets were aimed at him and some balls hit him. Joseph continued snapping his revolver round the easing of the door into the space as before, three barrels of which missed fire, while Mr. Taylor with a walking stick stood by his side and knocked down the bayonets and muskets which were constantly discharging through the doorway, while I stood by him, ready to lend any assistance, with another stick, but could not come within striking distance without going directly before the muzzle of the guns.” (Willard Richards, Two Minutes In Jail – Times and Seasons) “Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire. Continual discharges of musketry came into the room. Elder Taylor continued parrying the guns until they had got them about half their length into the room, when he found that resistance was vain, and he attempted to jump out of the window, where a ball fired from within struck him on his left thigh, hitting the bone, and passing through to within half an inch of the other side.” (John Taylor, History of the Church, Vol 6 Chapters 33-34, pages 602-622)Why do Mormons accept teachings about the avoidance of tea and coffee, but disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine? "We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious" (Journal of Discourses 12:223) “And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man— Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. Yea,flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” (Doctrine and Covenants 89:8-13)[*]Why did the LDS church alienate black people until June 8, 1978, when political pressure pertaining to civil rights peaked against the LDS? Incidentally, the King James Version of the Bible (which is endorsed by Mormon leaders) says nothing about Cain having a “mark,” and certainly nothing of the color black.BIBLE: “And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” (Genesis 4:9-12) MORMON LEADERS: “Those who were less valiant in per-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earththrough the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin...Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood...the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern..." (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 original edition)MORMON LEADERS: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 10, page 110) MORMON LEADERS: "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 22:304) MORMON LEADERS: “Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty…The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them…” (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pages 477, 527-28, 1966 original edition)Why did Mormon leaders teach that polygamy was required to obtain salvation? Why did the church later overrule these revelations from God?“...we are not ashamed here in this great metropolis of America to declare that we are polygamists. We are not ashamed to proclaim to this great nation, to rulers and people, to the president, senators, legislators, judges; to high and low, rich and poor, priests and people, that we are firm, conscientious believers in polygamy, and that it is part and parcel of our religious creed.” (Prophet John Taylor, Life of John Taylor, page 255)“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 11, page 269)“Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, page 523)“Any who pretend or assume to engage in plural marriage is this day,... are living in adultery, have already sold their souls to Satan, and...will be damned in eternity.” (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Ibid, pages 522-523)Why do Mormon leaders teach that you may not enter the kingdom of Heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith? The Bible teaches that that only way into Heaven is through Jesus."No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...” (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 7:288)“[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol 1, page 190)“Is it any wonder then, that we say of the priests of modern days, that they are of their father the devil...we shall see all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day, with all their followers, without on exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (Elders' Journal, Edited by Joseph Smith, Vol 1, No. 4, pages 59-60)“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)Why does the LDS church teach that salvation is so complicated, when the Bible teaches that it is very simple? MORMONISM: “Man cannot be saved by grace alone; as the Lord lives, he must keep the commandments; he must work the works of righteousness; he must work out his salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord." (BYU Professor Robert L Millet, Grace Works, pages 118-119)MORMONISM: "For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory." (Doctrine and Covenants 88:22)MORMONISM (regarding the duty to baptize the dead): "If we wilfully neglect the salvation of our dead, then also we shall stand rejected of the Lord, because we have neglected our dead; and just so sure their blood will be required at our hands ...we cannot be saved without them." (Doctrines of Salvation 2:145,149). MORMONISM: "No man can be perfect without the woman, so no woman can be perfect without a man to lead her. I tell you the truth as it is in the bosom of eternity. If he wishes to be saved, he cannot be saved without a woman by his side." (Prophet Brigham Young, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 245) BIBLE: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)BIBLE: “but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.” (Romans 9:31-33)BIBLE: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)BIBLE: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)BIBLE: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24) BIBLE: “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)Do I love Mormons? Don't be silly, of course I do. In fact, some of my very dear friends are Mormons. Christ taught that we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves. As a firm believer in Christ, and his teachings in the Bible, I see no reason to exclude the lovely Mormons from my unconditional love.All these questions, however, have originated through my study of Mormon literature. I feel that these questions are all legitimate, and require legitimate answers. To believe in the Mormon faith without understanding Mormon teachings is simply blind, uneducated acceptance. Is there anyone who can answer these questions without resorting to “INSERT PERSONAL TESTIMONY, END WITH: …read The Book of Mormon, and pray that God will reveal it to you as truth?”Lovingly,Matt<p class="rep_bar clearfix right" id="rep_post_1209107408" style="margin-top: 6px; margin-right: 4px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-left: 4px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; float: right; white-space: nowrap; ">0 Edited April 1, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Bluebell:Wow, that's one heck of a first post! It's got so much in it that it's going to be impossible for this thread not to spin off into a million different topics, but i've got some time so i'll tackle a few of your issues.For this first question, i'll quote Jeff Lindsay, who has a great website where he talks about these issues (and does so with a sense of humor and without taking himself too seriously, so it's usually entertaining and informative."Nearly 5 decades after Joseph's death, the journal of Oliver Huntington reports that he heard Joseph say something of this nature while Oliver was a child. There is little reason to take Oliver's statement at face value. There is no other evidence that Joseph believed such a thing. But even if Joseph did accept some of the common misconceptions of his day (even some scientists speculated about the moon being inhabited), that provides no reason to reject him as a prophet. Prophets don't automatically become experts on all aspects of science. Even Moses had some basic scientific problems in classifying animals that appear as "errors" in the Bible (listing a bat as a "bird" and a hare as a cud chewer in Deut 14:7,18)"This question is a good one as the answer shows the danger in taking something at face value without actually doing any research on your own to find out if it is actually accurate or reasonable.
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) MattC: Why does the LDS church teach that God used to be a mortal man who lives on the planet Kolob, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God has always been and always will be God?Bluebell: In LDS theology, Kolob is a star and God does not live on it. Edited April 1, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) MattC: Why does the LDS church teach that there are many Gods, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God is the only God?Bluebell: For two main reasons. Here's how Barry R. Bickmore explains it:"First, there is only one God because the Father is the supreme monarch of our universe. There is no other God to whom we could switch our allegiance, and there never will be such a being. He is "the Eternal God of all other gods" (D&C 121:32). Elder Boyd K. Packer writes: The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God; of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.[boyd K. Packer, Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991), 293, emphasis in original.] Second, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are so unified in mind, will, love, and covenant that they can collectively be called "one God" (see 2 Nephi 31:21; D&C 20:28). A powerful unity of spirit, the universal "light of Christ" that is the power of God pervading the universe (D&C 88:7-13), bonds them. Jesus Christ can even be identified by the title "Father" because "I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one - The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men" (D&C 93:3-4). Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained: "Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage - are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists."[bruce R. McConkie, "Monotheism," in Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), p. 511." Edited April 1, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) MattC: There's a remarkable amount of archaeological evidence that gives the Bible credibility as an accurate historical record. Why is there no archaeological evidence to substantiate the people, places, events, and artifacts in The Book of MormonBluebell: What would archaeological evidence in support of the Book of Mormon look like? Edited April 1, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) MattC: Why does the LDS church still include Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris as credible witnesses to The Book of Mormon's legitimacy? All three, and other witnesses, later rejected Joseph Smith as a true prophet and left the Mormon church.Bluebell: Because, despite the fact that they all at some point were enemies of Joseph Smith, none ever renounced their testimony of the Book of Mormon, so their testimonies are still applicable to the subject. In fact, given their later feelings for JS, their testimonies hold even more weight than they would had none of the men ever left the church. Edited April 1, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 reelmormon:Newbie:without form and without void - Most of the points you make have already been adequately answered by Jeff Lindsay, FAIR and others. Perhaps 19 year old missionaries can not but that is not their call. They are called to teach the doctrine of Christ.2nd nephi chapter 31 Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.Also your comment about God living on Kolob shows your lack of study... you sound like a discussion board troll. Kolob is a star as pointed out earlier. Honestly you have to have better material then these. My faith has serious flaws..... these are not it.
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 MattC: Joseph Smith's original version of Doctrine and Covenants was called Book of Commandments. Melvin J. Peterson, in his BYU thesis comparing the books, found that 703 words have been changed, 1,650 words have been added, and 453 words have been deleted since Smith's original revelations in Book of Commandments. If these were true revelations from God, why were 2,806 changes needed in the two years before it was republished under the name Doctrine and Covenants? Why do Mormon leaders claim that no changes were ever made, even though you can place the books side by side and compare the differences yourself?Bluebell: Because editing a book does not automatically equal 'changing doctrines'. Think of all the different translations of the Bible which are in existence. Does the fact that the NIV, for example, might have more words in the Book of Matthew than the KJV imply doctrine has been changed? Also, if the bible is the word of God, why are so many different versions needed? (I don't really want you to answer these questions, but to recognize that a double standard might be one of the stumbling blocks causing you so much trouble.)
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 MattC: Why doesn't the LDS church teach that Joseph Smith was involved in a gun fight, where he killed two men just before his death?Bluebell: Because it's not true.
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 MattC: Why do Mormons accept teachings about the avoidance of tea and coffee, but disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine?Bluebell: Mostly because we believe that not all commandments are equal in the Word of Wisdom,....and we're not perfect.
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 MattC: Why do Mormons accept teachings about the avoidance of tea and coffee, but disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine?Nominee:All Mormons do NOT disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine.
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 GingerRed: Wow Matt! That's a lot of misconceptions you got going there! Like Bluebell said, you go off on so many different tangents, its going to be hard to address everything all at once! Everything you've posted has been answered many times already on these forums. But I'm sure there are posters on here who will gladly answer your concerns.Let me just say this. I am a convert. I joined the church in Dec 1978 in San Francisco. I was 21. I had just barely heard the proclamation about all worthy males given the Priesthood months before.. I didn't even know there WAS a ban. The ward I had been attending as I was investigating had a few black members so it wasn't really anything I thought about. So it didn't concern me. I also did my own praying and pondering and fasting as my missionaries asked me to. I didn't need to go searching through outside material to find my answers. It took me 4 months to get my answer, though as I didn't want to just dive blindly in. I spent time with my new Mormon friends who were the young single adults, watching and observing. I went to church. I went to activities. I asked questions. For me, the only way to find out about Mormonism, was to hang out with the Mormons! The proof was in the pudding, so to speak. There was no internet back then...I didn't have the desire to go searching through the library. So I prayed some more. And my answer I received from God, needed no doubt. I know you think all those people who told you to pray and get your own answers, is just some kind of pat answer. But it really is the way to know the truth. it worked for me. I joined the church without really knowing much about the history....or the unusual doctrines...or some of the other concerns you have. I found out about all those things later down the road....the whole polygamy controversy....the MMM.....Kolob...yadda yadda. But for me, it makes no difference. My testimony grew strong long before then. Once the Holy Ghost touches you and tells you this is it, this is where you belong....nothing anyone says can tear me away.Being on these forums has been very educational...lol. I'm fascinated by it all, good and bad, really. But nothing shakes my faith. And believe me, I've had enough trials and bad stuff in my life that could have made me bolt a long time ago! But like they say...if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger. I am not perfect. But I believe in striving for excellence...not perfection. . Red <p class="rep_bar clearfix right" id="rep_post_1209107455" style="margin-top: 6px; margin-right: 4px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-left: 4px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; float: right; white-space: nowrap; ">0
Calm Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 MattC:Why did Joseph Smith teach that the moon was inhabited by people? Clearly it is not. Altersteve: First of all, this is a second- or third-person account, so it is inaccurate to say that Joseph Smith said this. He was alleged to have said this. Even so, many people in the 19th century believed people lived on the moon. It was part of the science of the day, and since he never claimed to know this by revelation, he was clearly (if he said this) stating his own opinion. Furthermore, you should know that biblical prophets believed the world was flat, which it is clearly not. Click here.MattC: Why does the LDS church teach that God used to be a mortal man who lives on the planet Kolob, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God has always been and always will be God?Altersteve: Kolob is said to be the name given to a star, not a planet, and God does not live on it. But the answer to your question can be found here.MattC: Why does the LDS church teach that there are many Gods, when both the Bible and The Book of Mormon teach that God is the only God?Altersteve: We believe there is one God, but we accept the existence of other divine beings (who, by very definition, are "gods").MattC: There's a remarkable amount of archaeological evidence that gives the Bible credibility as an accurate historical record. Why is there no archaeological evidence to substantiate the people, places, events, and artifacts in The Book of Mormon?Altersteve: There is. You need to understand what the Book of Mormon says and what it does not say before you can understand this issue.MattC:Why does the LDS church still include Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris as credible witnesses to The Book of Mormon's legitimacy? All three, and other witnesses, later rejected Joseph Smith as a true prophet and left the Mormon church.Altersteve: They left the Church and rejected Joseph, but they never denied their testimony of the Book of Mormon.MattC: Joseph Smith's original version of Doctrine and Covenants was called Book of Commandments. Melvin J. Peterson, in his BYU thesis comparing the books, found that 703 words have been changed, 1,650 words have been added, and 453 words have been deleted since Smith's original revelations in Book of Commandments. If these were true revelations from God, why were 2,806 changes needed in the two years before it was republished under the name Doctrine and Covenants? Why do Mormon leaders claim that no changes were ever made, even though you can place the books side by side and compare the differences yourself?Altersteve: See here. Also, no Church leader I am aware of has claimed that no changes were made.MattC:Why doesn't the LDS church teach that Joseph Smith was involved in a gun fight, where he killed two men just before his death?Altersteve: Two men armed with pistols vs. a mob of angry men armed with rifles hardly constitutes as a "gun fight." And John Taylor was mistaken; Joseph Smith did not kill anyone, though he wounded at least three.MattC: Why do Mormons accept teachings about the avoidance of tea and coffee, but disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine?Altersteve: Click here.MattC: Why did the LDS church alienate black people until June 8, 1978, when political pressure pertaining to civil rights peaked against the LDS? Incidentally, the King James Version of the Bible (which is endorsed by Mormon leaders) says nothing about Cain having a “mark,” and certainly nothing of the color black.Altersteve: This is a very complex issue, but the Church did not "alienate black people." Black people have always been welcomed into the Church. However, men of African American ancestry were not allowed to hold the priesthood. The Church does not claim to know the reason for this ban.MattC: Why did Mormon leaders teach that polygamy was required to obtain salvation? Why did the church later overrule these revelations from God?Altersteve: Click here and here.MattC: Why do Mormon leaders teach that you may not enter the kingdom of Heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith? The Bible teaches that that only way into Heaven is through Jesus.Altersteve: We absolutely DO NOT believe this. Click here and here.MattC: Why does the LDS church teach that salvation is so complicated, when the Bible teaches that it is very simple?Altersteve: Latter-day Saints do not believe salvation is "complicated."
Zeta-Flux Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Regarding the moon:FAIR article on Joseph Smith-moon inhabitedFAIR article on Brigham Young-moon inhabitedRegarding God being a man:Let me counter, why do Christians teach that Christ used to be a mortal man on a planet named Terra, when the scriptures say God will always be God? The answer to this question is similar to how I would answer the original question. (As for "Kolob", that is simply a transliteration of an altered Hebrew word for "star" just as "Terra" is the Greek word for Earth.)Regarding the question: Why does the LDS church still include Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris as credible witnesses to The Book of Mormon's legitimacy? All three, and other witnesses, later rejected Joseph Smith as a true prophet and left the Mormon church.For the same reason that we take the words of the prophets in the Bible as credible, even though many of them also fell away.That should be a good starting place to help this person understand that there are two sides to all of these questions, if they really want the answers.
Garden Girl Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 This person has legitimate questions... but as pointed out, most have been answered numerous times and he needs to do some searching first, then ask questions here... I'd suggest FAIRlds.org and FARMS to begin.But just as an aside... on the question about Joseph Smith and "inhabitants on the moon" that so many scoff at... Joseph was a prophet and seer. Who's to say that he was't receiving inspiration/revelation about such inhabitants in relation to some time in the future. For instance, we have recently had several nations, including our own, discussing establishing a "colony" or permanent space station on the moon. Who's to say this will not happen... and if a colony populated by former earth inhabitants in a permanent "space station" atmosphere, who's to say that one day missionaries would not be teaching such moon inhabitants... Just a little speculation on my own that may have seemed "out there" 50 years ago but is getting closer to possible reality with each passing decade.GG
Pahoran Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Here's a really original approach: "I'm investigating the Church and I've just got a few little questions to which I'd really like an answer" -- followed by a long screed of industry-standard, shrink-wrapped, off-the-shelf anti-Mormon talking points. I wonder what website Matt cut and pasted these from?But as I say, this approach is really original. I haven't seen it done for at least an hour.Since this is a typically anti-Mormon collection of scatter-gun accusations, made on the theory that if you throw enough mud some is bound to stick, I will pick out one point and respond to it. I may come back and respond to other points later.Why did the LDS church alienate black people until June 8, 1978, when political pressure pertaining to civil rights peaked against the LDS?I'm sorry, Lovingly Matt, but the highlighted portion is a brazen falsehood. Whoever told it to you has lied to you outright, and you should never ever trust anything they tell you again.The Priesthood ban had nothing to do with "civil rights." The Priesthood is not, and never has been, a "civil right." I do not know what you mean about "political pressure." If you mean government pressure, there was none. If you mean something like "the pressure of public opinion," that actually "peaked" about 1969 or so; and even then, it was never very great. A few university students -- at a time when university students protested about absolutely everything, all the time -- protested a few BYU sports fixtures. A few letters were written to a few editors. By 1978 the "pressure" was in full decline.Just so you know.Regards,Pahoran 1
zerinus Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 There is a long answer to MattC's list of questions and a short answer. Since I like short answers better than long ones, I am going to make this a short one. I don't believe that MattC has the slightest interest in finding out the truth of Mormonism, or in joining the Church. Those are not the kind of questions that a genuine investigator would be asking. I am a convert to the Church, and my reasons for joining the Church is simple. I have read the Book of Mormon, and I know that it is true. Having established that without a doubt, you can tell me about the transgressions of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and all the dumb things that they might have said or done, and it is not going to destroy the reality of that truth for me.And by the way, I think I have a pretty good idea who this MattC guy is. I notice that he has made one post, and then quit. He is none other than the old friend of Mormonism, Matt Slick of CARM fame. That is exactly how he thinks and writs. I can recognize his style of writing and method of debate form a mile away. I think that he knows that the Church is true, but chooses to fight against it for reasons best known to himself. I have no wish to judge him. His judgement is with the Lord. But I believe he knows the Church is true. Hi Matt! Long time no see!
wenglund Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 If a person is really intent on getting to know our faith, it helps to ask the right questions--as opposed to questions, such as those posed here, which are, at best, peripheral to the essence of the restored gospel.Here are some of the "right" questions:1. What is the mission of our gospel/church?2. Does this mission align with your own?3. How does our gospel/church go about accomplishing its mission?4. Is our gospel/church of God--is it Christ's gospel/church?5. How does one determine the answer to question #4?6. Is our gospel/church what is currently best for you and what God wishes for you?Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Buzzard Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 MattC: Bluebell: What would archaeological evidence in support of the Book of Mormon look like? I agree that this is obviously a anti- troll piece. But this particular allegation has always amused me. If you ask any secular/scholarly archeologist who specializes in the Middle East, he would be quick to point out that there is no reputable evidence of the existence of Moses and the Exodus, Abraham, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and many of the other Old Testament biblical narratives. And don't even get started on the Garden of Eden, the continents being together until the days of Peleg, or a worldwide flood. All these are categorized as myth and legend.Does that mean those things did not happen? No, I think most LDS believe in Abraham, Moses, and the historocity of most of what is in the Old Testament, though unlike our Evangelical friends, we are open to some of Genesis being figurative/allegorical. But is does mean that no archeological evidence exists for these events that has been found. Kind of like...the Book of Mormon.
Pahoran Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) I agree that this is obviously a anti- troll piece. But this particular allegation has always amused me. If you ask any secular/scholarly archeologist who specializes in the Middle East, he would be quick to point out that there is no reputable evidence of the existence of Moses and the Exodus, Abraham, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and many of the other Old Testament biblical narratives. And don't even get started on the Garden of Eden, the continents being together until the days of Peleg, or a worldwide flood. All these are categorized as myth and legend.Does that mean those things did not happen? No, I think most LDS believe in Abraham, Moses, and the historocity of most of what is in the Old Testament, though unlike our Evangelical friends, we are open to some of Genesis being figurative/allegorical. But is does mean that no archeological evidence exists for these events that has been found. Kind of like...the Book of Mormon.Buzzard,Those are very good points.Did you see on the previous page where Zerinus outed MattC as Matt Slick from CARM? If he's right, then it's a pity he's outed him, because Slick Matt is unlikely to come back once he knows we're on to him.You see, if he did come back, he'd see your post, assume you were "attacking the Bible" and, on cue, go ballistic.And there's nothing quite as entertaining as watching an anti-Mormon EV zealot like Slick Matt having a haemorrhage over any disrespect to his idol. Unless it's watching one have a second haemorrhage when you point out that that's how he's treating the Bible: as an idol to be venerated, instead of as the record of God's dealings with ancient people.Regards,Pahoran Edited April 2, 2012 by Pahoran
Evergrow Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Why do Mormons accept teachings about the avoidance of tea and coffee, but disregard teachings about only eating meat in times of cold or famine? Because Mormons don't follow your anti-mormon "false interpretation" of our scriptures.1. Verse 12 gives the actual command. To eat meat "sparingly".2. Verse 13 uses the word "not" which is Old English, making a seeming negative into a positive.In other words, it's saying that it's "okay" to eat meat at other times other than cold and famine.You should note that in those days, cold and famine is when meat was most often and the greatest degree eaten, while grains, fruits, etc. were eaten more at other times.3. One reason we know that the "not" changes the meaning is because the same statement is made in verse 15, but without the word "not". The omission is a direct statement banning particular things except in famine and excess hunger (note also that cold is not stated). And these things banned are wild animals and creeping things i.e. bugs, rodents, etc.4. Even more further we know that the command to eat meat is "sparingly" and nothing else because of another D&C verse, which states:D&C 49:18 And whoso aforbiddeth to babstain from cmeats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; 19 For, behold, the abeasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is bordained for the use of man for food and for craiment, and that he might have in abundance.Also, there are Biblical verses which make the same statements concerning meat. That we ARE to eat meat.In conclusion, the D&C is NOT stating that we should eat meat ONLY in Winter or Famine. That is a false interpretation.
BCSpace Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 That is exactly how he thinks and writsSounds painful.
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