altersteve Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Well, no... The Book of Mormon exists because Joseph produced a manuscript. The contents of The Book of Mormon claim that a race of people called Nephites existed and further claim individuals of Nephite descent authored the book. This claim Nephites existed because The Book of Mormon references Nephites and is narrated by Nephites is not evidence of Nephite existence any more than 'Moby ****' is evidence of the existence of Ishmael, the books narrator.As I said earlier, take the Book of Mormon out of the equation and provide evidence of the Nephite civilization.I know you understand what I am getting at, so I'll assume that you have no better answer.H.Moby Diick is a fictional novel and does not claim to be an historically accurate account. So it's not a good comparison.
LDSToronto Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Actually, yes...The Book of Mormon is as much evidence for the existence of Nephites as personal journals, translated by someone else, are evidence of the existence of their respective authors.If you are treating The Book of Mormon thusly, like a historical document, then you have to remember one thing - The Book of Mormon is not a primary source, and because it is not a primary source is subject to all the scrutiny and criticism that many here afford other documents that are not primary sources.H.
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Well, at least you are being honest. If God and angels, then we have nothing but the honest word of those who have heard and seen what God and angels produced.No, we have the honest words of those who have literally seen and handled the plates that were written by the Nephites, to which God and angels have likewise testified.I think you have kind of proven Dan's points. H....then you clearly didn't correctly grasp what I have said.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
LDSToronto Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 No, we have the honest words of those who have literally seen and handled the plates that were written by the Nephites, to which God and angels have likewise testified.That's the trouble with Nephites - always question-begging....then you clearly didn't correctly grasp what I have said.Don't confuse 'not buying it' with 'failure to comprehend'H.
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 If you are treating The Book of Mormon thusly, like a historical document, then you have to remember one thing - The Book of Mormon is not a primary source, and because it is not a primary source is subject to all the scrutiny and criticism that many here afford other documents that are not primary sources. H.I view it as a translation of a primary source, and while still subject to scrutiny on that basis, it is evidence for the existence of Nephites nevertheless.Granted, it may not be compelling evidence in the minds of some people, or evidence that everyone might accept or give a lot of weight, particularly in a secular sense, but it is evidence.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 That's the trouble with Nephites - always question-begging.I wasn't aware that you were a Nephite. LOLDon't confuse 'not buying it' with 'failure to comprehend' H.I didn't--and I say this as the ultimate authority of what I said and meant.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
LDSToronto Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 I view it as a translation of a primary source, and while still subject to scrutiny on that basis, it is evidence for the existence of Nephites nevertheless.Granted, it may not be compelling evidence in the minds of some people, or evidence that everyone might accept or give a lot of weight, particularly in a secular sense, but it is evidence.Thanks, -Wade Englund-View it as you wish - but wishes don't equal truth. As it stands, the Book of Mormon is evidence that Joseph produced a manuscript. And that's about all anyone can claim.H. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?H.If you are actually interested in Mark Wright, he posts here under the name Hashbaz- you can search for his contenthttp://www.mormondia...tivity&mid=4176He of course is only one of the BOM scholars who post here. Edited March 20, 2012 by mfbukowski
why me Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 One thing is certain: these witnesses to the book of mormon certainly had an experience that they never questioned or denied. This experience was so strong that they kept it with them throughout their lives confirming it in a faithful way to all those who wished to hear, even on their deathbeds they needed to retell their testimony.Now did they have a grand hallucination on a mass scale that was so convincing that years later they could not doubt the truth claims of the book of mormon? I doubt it. If we look at the critics on this forum, they have no problems rationalizing their spiritual experiences in the lds church as a means of exiting the lds church and denying its truth claims. But the witnesses could not do this. Their experience was too powerful and convincing.
LDSToronto Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 If you are actually interested in Mark Wright, he posts here under the name Hashbaz- you can search for his contenthttp://www.mormondia...tivity&mid=4176He of course is only one of the BOM scholars who post here.I don't understand what I should be searching for...You claimed the Nephites lived amongst the Mayans. Please provide a reference.H.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 I don't understand what I should be searching for...You claimed the Nephites lived amongst the Mayans. Please provide a reference.H."H" perhaps you should look at some of the threads that he posted on. Oh wait, that would be a waste of time.
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 View it as you wish - but wishes don't equal truth. As it stands, the Book of Mormon is evidence that Joseph produced a manuscript. And that's about all anyone can claim.H.Please don't project your fundamentalist, black/white limitations onto what I can or cannot legitimately claim. While the Book of Mormon isn't definitive evidence (in other words, the "truth" of it isn't factually knowable at this time either way), it is sufficient basis for increasing confidence and faith, while also allowing room for disbelief and loss of faith. To each their own.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Jaybear Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Please don't project your fundamentalist, black/white limitations onto what I can or cannot legitimately claim.Is that what the kids are calling logic and reason these days?Its seems rather obvious that if one is addressing the question of whether the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, the mere existence of the book in and of itself not evidence of its historicity.Perhaps you meant to say the spiritual feelings/emotions you and some others get while reading the book is evidence of the historicity of the book. While that is certainly persuasive evidence to people of faith, I think your Canadian brother was looking for secular evidence. Edited March 20, 2012 by Jaybear
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Is that what the kids are calling logic and reason these days?Only if they are the same kids who, because of the mounting failures of out-come based education, think 2+2=5.Its seems rather obvious that if one is addressing the question of whether the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, the mere existence of the book in and of itself not evidence of its historicity.It seems even more obvious that you have confused the subject with the object, the question with the answer. The question actually addressed was; "What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?" As someone who reasonably believes the Book of Mormon to be an ancient, non-fictional account of Nephites, it made perfect sense for me to answer by offering the Book of Mormon as just such a trace.People are then at liberty to accept or reject, for themselves, my answer as they see fit. They aren't at liberty to privilege their opinion with me.Perhaps you meant to say the spiritual feelings/emotions you and some others get while reading the book is evidence of the historicity of the book.Perhaps you should stick to speaking for yourself, or at the very least stick to restating things you correctly understand. That way you can avoid mistakenly putting words into other people's mouth, as in this instance.While that is certainly persuasive evidence to people of faith, I think your Canadian brother was looking for secular evidence.I surmised as much, and even explicitly said so. It is good of you to finally catch up.Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited March 20, 2012 by wenglund
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 I don't understand what I should be searching for...You claimed the Nephites lived amongst the Mayans. Please provide a reference.H.Mark Wright is one of the main scholars who takes this view. The article I linked to is over three hundred pages of evidence showing that Moroni may have been a rule of the Mayans.I also showed you where to get more information and posts from Mark Wright.Listen up please and try to follow the argument, ok?
mfbukowski Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Did Troy exist before it was found?Pluto is still a planet ?Why are there "undiscovered" species of fish found in fish markets where they have been fished and sold for centuries? Did Columbus discover America ?Is Newtonian physics a "fact"?There you go again asking all kinds of difficult questions!
Jaybear Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 The question actually addressed was; "What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?" As someone who reasonably believes the Book of Mormon to be an ancient, non-fictional account of Nephites, it made perfect sense for me to answer by offering the Book of Mormon as just such a trace.Its a very good answer, if your goal is to resort to semantics and avoid a civil, rational, and substantive discussion about the historicity of the BoM.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Its a very good answer, if your goal is to resort to semantics and avoid a civil, rational, and substantive discussion about the historicity of the BoM.Dodge ball is in season, folks.
Pahoran Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Its a very good answer, if your goal is to resort to semantics and avoid a civil, rational, and substantive discussion about the historicity of the BoM.Look everybody; the Jaybear is trying to lecture someone about civil, rational and substantive discussions!Again, the question asked was, "What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?" The very best and most unambiguous of all "traces of existence" are written records.The Book of Mormon is the Nephite record; thus it is, in fact, a valid answer to the question.Regards,Pahoran
wenglund Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Its a very good answer, if your goal is to resort to semantics and avoid a civil, rational, and substantive discussion about the historicity of the BoM.It is also a good answer when attempting to have a non-semantical, civil, rational, and substantive discussion regarding possible traces of ancient Nephite peoples.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Gervin Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Look everybody; the Jaybear is trying to lecture someone about civil, rational and substantive discussions!Again, the question asked was, "What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?" The very best and most unambiguous of all "traces of existence" are written records.The Book of Mormon is the Nephite record; thus it is, in fact, a valid answer to the question.Regards,PahoranMy guess is that you wouldn't dare use this "logic" to answer the question, "What traces of existence did the thetans leave behind?" Answer: Xenu was the tyrnat ruler of the Galatic Confederacy based on the written records found in Scientology's OT level teachings.Or maybe you would.
Jaybear Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Look everybody; the Jaybear is trying to lecture someone about civil, rational and substantive discussions!You are welcome to call me "Jaybear," or "Jay". "The Jaybear," doesn't work for me, as that would be disrespectful to all the other Jaybears of the world. Again, the question asked was, "What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?" The very best and most unambiguous of all "traces of existence" are written records.The Book of Mormon is the Nephite record; thus it is, in fact, a valid answer to the question.Semantics: When you provide an answer that is technically "valid", knowing full well that it was not the information the person was seeking.If you ever catch me engaging in semantics, be sure to call me on it.
Pahoran Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 My guess is that you wouldn't dare use this "logic" to answer the question, "What traces of existence did the thetans leave behind?" Answer: Xenu was the tyrnat ruler of the Galatic Confederacy based on the written records found in Scientology's OT level teachings.Or maybe you would.Ah. Smearing by association.Since all the most cynical and unprincipled demagogues use it as a weapon of first resort, it's not surprising to see you flourishing it with such practiced ease.Regards,Pahoran
Dan Vogel Posted March 20, 2012 Author Posted March 20, 2012 Have you even read any of my posts about group hallucination? You haven't answered them. I think everyone is aware that history is not a science, and that is the entire problem."Only in a scientific sense"? Fine then I agree. You cannot prove your case in any scientific way whatsoever. You take it all on faith. Good for you. I am afraid my faith differs from you, but at least you understand what it means to have something give meaning to your life that you cannot prove.On the other hand, I call that "religion".I asked if you accepted historical evidence. Your definition of faith and religion is meaningless if it can apply to things that are conventionally not included. IIRC, you were involved in a debate about mass hysteria, which isn't the same as group hallucination, although it shows how closely humans are psychologically linked.
Recommended Posts