Bom Witnesses: Vogel Responds To Apologists

[Dan Vogel]

More hallucinations.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, you are wasting our time.

[cdowis]

Yes, I understand that. I also understand that it says that there may have been a character named Jesus who existed 2000 years ago. Now, let's move the semantics, analogies, and metaphors aside and provide the evidence that Nephites existed, independent of the alleged record found in The Book of Mormon.

H.

When are you going to answer my question -- specifically, how do you identify a Nephite? Are we looking for a picture of Mary, a symbol of a fish, etc. You are demanding that we identify Nephite artifacts, and we simply don't know how to do that.

We do know that the inhabitants of mesoamerica had a calendar, written records (codices), there were extensive wars, towers used in religious rites, hierarchy of kings, all of which are mentioned in the BOM. Virtually none of the ancient names of cities and geographic features are unknown with the interesting exception of Lamanai, which name is found in the BOM. The BOM tells us that city names come from individual names, and this was the name of a Lamanite king.

So, stop wasting our time with your impossible demand until you answer the question.

[Jaybear]

When are you going to answer my question -- specifically, how do you identify a Nephite? Are we looking for a picture of Mary, a symbol of a fish, etc.

That is a question you should put to an archaeologist or anthropologist. They do amazing work.

I suspect that having a comprehensive history book of the Nephite nation should make the job of locating and identifying Nephite artifacts much easier.

You are demanding that we identify Nephite artifacts, and we simply don't know how to do that.

Demanding? That's such a harsh word.

Perhaps its more fair to say that if you are going to expect the NonLDS world to take serious the claim that the BOM is a genuine translation of an ancient manuscript, then we will expect that you produce tangible evidence that Nephites actually existed.

[cdowis]

Perhaps its more fair to say that if you are going to expect the NonLDS world to take serious the claim that the BOM is a genuine translation of an ancient manuscript, then we will expect that you produce tangible evidence that Nephites actually existed.

You are confused. I have absolutely no interest in whether "the world takes the BOM seriously". I have no expectations in that regard, because the BOM is a personal decision between yourself and Deity. I consider that decision as probably the most important one in our life, since it has eternal consequences for our life in immortality.

So, if you feel that decision is my burden to prove to you, to convince you and "the world" whether the Nephites existed, I truly wish you all the best.

Edited March 23, 2012 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Did the ancient city of Troy exist before it was found?

[wenglund]

Wade, you are wasting our time.

No, I am saving time. I have honed in on the underlying problem.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

Jaybear:

Did the ancient city of Troy exist before it was found?

That question is exactly to the point, isn't it?

[Jaybear]

You are confused. I have absolutely no interest in whether "the world takes the BOM seriously".

I am confused now, because I don't know what I said, that would lead you to think I am confused.

I never assumed you had such an interest. I said quite clearly "if you are going to expect..."

IMO, you bear the burden of proof only where (1) you make an express statement of fact (not a personal statement of belief); and (2) you expect others to take your claim seriously.

[Dan Vogel]

Jaybear:

Did the ancient city of Troy exist before it was found?

And how was it found?

[cdowis]

Do you understand the difference between the indicative mood and the subjunctive? "If you are going to

,,,, " is the indicative, whilst "If you were going to..." is the subjunctive. ".......going to" merely indicates the present progressive tense, not the mood.

No big deal.

Edited March 23, 2012 by cdowis

[Dan Vogel]

When are you going to answer my question -- specifically, how do you identify a Nephite? Are we looking for a picture of Mary, a symbol of a fish, etc. You are demanding that we identify Nephite artifacts, and we simply don't know how to do that.

We do know that the inhabitants of mesoamerica had a calendar, written records (codices), there were extensive wars, towers used in religious rites, hierarchy of kings, all of which are mentioned in the BOM. Virtually none of the ancient names of cities and geographic features are unknown with the interesting exception of Lamanai, which name is found in the BOM. The BOM tells us that city names come from individual names, and this was the name of a Lamanite king.

So, stop wasting our time with your impossible demand until you answer the question.

How about a Hebrew text of an Old Testament passage, or a stele with a list of Nephite kings in Egyptian, or an artifact related to Jewish temple worship, etc.

[wenglund]

And how was it found?

Should I take this as a tacit, yes, to the question that was asked?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cdowis]

How about a Hebrew text of an Old Testament passage, or a stele with a list of Nephite kings in Egyptian, or an artifact related to Jewish temple worship, etc.

You comment above show an abysmal ignorance of the BOM text and the history of this region.

1. According to the BOM, the Nephite language was not Egyptian nor the hebrew language. As an published and well-known critic of the BOM, one would expect that you would be familiar with its text.

2. There are no written records extant from the pre-Classic period. They were all destroyed by the Catholic priests who found their content disturbing. I would think that as an award winning historian, you would have known that.

3. After four centuries of Christianity, the Nephites were not doing "Jewish temple rites" (animal sacrifices), Second, the Lamanites would certainly have destroyed any religious artifacts after the great war of extinction.

We need to be looking for evidence of Nephites, not Jews in mesoamerica. The Nephites were thousands of miles from Jerusalem, and hundreds of years removed from their culture, including the change from the Mosaid law to Christianity.

I have already listed some discoveries of Nephite culture, as described in the BOM text. Look for Nephites, not Jews.

Edited March 23, 2012 by cdowis

[Dan Vogel]

Should I take this as a tacit, yes, to the question that was asked?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Of course, Troy existed before it was found, but don't commit the fallacy of possible proof as well as the fallacy of proof by analogy.

[LDSToronto]

You comment above show an abysmal ignorance of the BOM text and the history of this region.

1. According to the BOM, the Nephite language was not Egyptian nor the hebrew language. As an published and well-known critic of the BOM, one would expect that you would be familiar with its text.

Then this should make it dead simple to identify an artifact - it will have writings engraved in a language not recognized, and it will be found on the North American continent.

2. There are no written records extant from the pre-Classic period. They were all destroyed by the Catholic priests who found their content disturbing. I would think that as an award winning historian, you would have known that.

No writings that we know of!

3. After four centuries of Christianity, the Nephites were not doing "Jewish temple rites" (animal sacrifices), Second, the Lamanites would certainly have destroyed any religious artifacts after the great war of extinction.

Where is it written that the Lamanites destroyed religious artifacts? And why can't we find evidence of this destruction?

I have already listed some discoveries of Nephite culture, as described in the BOM text. Look for Nephites, not Jews.

I missed this list - is it in this thread?

H.

[Dan Vogel]

Dowis,

How about a Hebrew text of an Old Testament passage, or a stele with a list of Nephite kings in Egyptian, or an artifact related to Jewish temple worship, etc.

You comment above show an abysmal ignorance of the BOM text and the history of this region.

Cute ... and funny.

1. According to the BOM, the Nephite language was not Egyptian nor the hebrew language. As an published and well-known critic of the BOM, one would expect that you would be familiar with its text.

It was describe as reformed a thousand years later. I can’t imagine Nephi and Lehi spoke or wrote reformed Hebrew and Egyptian. Still I would accept a specimen of reformed Hebrew or Egyptian.

2. There are no written records extant from the pre-Classic period. They were all destroyed by the Catholic priests who found their content disturbing. I would think that as an award winning historian, you would have known that.

You can’t say they were all destroyed, especially when you believe the real hill Cumorah and Mormon’s library is located in Central America.

3. After four centuries of Christianity, the Nephites were not doing "Jewish temple rites" (animal sacrifices), Second, the Lamanites would certainly have destroyed any religious artifacts after the great war of extinction.

The Lamanites may have discarded such things at the local dump, but that they would have taken the time and energy to annihilate them from existence is doubtful.

We need to be looking for evidence of Nephites, not Jews in mesoamerica. The Nephites were thousands of miles from Jerusalem, and hundreds of years removed from their culture, including the change from the Mosaid law to Christianity.

I have already listed some discoveries of Nephite culture, as described in the BOM text. Look for Nephites, not Jews.

I think that’s distinction without a difference. The Nephites were supposed to be Jews who used Solomon’s temple as a guide and kept the Law of Moses. The burning of the scriptures mentioned in Alma 14 implies that multiple copies existed besides the brass plates.

We do know that the inhabitants of mesoamerica had a calendar, written records (codices), there were extensive wars, towers used in religious rites, hierarchy of kings, all of which are mentioned in the BOM. Virtually none of the ancient names of cities and geographic features are unknown with the interesting exception of Lamanai, which name is found in the BOM. The BOM tells us that city names come from individual names, and this was the name of a Lamanite king.

I don’t see anything here that is remotely compelling, especially considering these things pertain to the Maya, who are not mentioned in the BOM.

[mfbukowski]

I don’t see anything here that is remotely compelling, especially considering these things pertain to the Maya, who are not mentioned in the BOM.

How do you know that?

What would be the English translation of the "reformed Egyptian" translation of whatever it is the people we now call "Maya" called themselves?

The etymology of “Maya” and “Mayo”

The case of Maya and Mayo is the only one of those discussed here where the resemblance seems to be totally accidental. That is, it is only in this one case that the two names come from completely different sources and the similarity in the way they sound has nothing to do with a similarity of meaning in the naming language.

Various etymologies have been proposed for the name “Maya”. It may possibly come from the word ma'ya'ab which means ‘few, a little bit’, that is ‘(place) where few people live’ or from the word ma'yaan ja' ‘waterless (place)’, or from máay ja' ‘(place of) sedimented water’. Whatever the true etymology is, the name became attached to the Mayab, the area we know as the Yucatán Peninsula, and various other forms of the word refer to the Yucatecan people and their language, and the language family and civilizations associated with them.

The Mayo people (or Yoremem) apparently received their Spanish name from their traditional homeland’s being along the Mayo River of Sonora. It is not clear how the river got its name. It is possible that it comes from the Spanish month name mayo ‘May’; possibly the river was discovered or named in that month.

http://www.sil.org/mexico/nombres/10ei-mayaMayo.htm

Edited March 24, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Dan Vogel]

How do you know that?

What would be the English translation of the "reformed Egyptian" translation of whatever it is the people we now call "Maya" called themselves?

http://www.sil.org/m...ei-mayaMayo.htm

Are you claiming the Maya and the Nephites are the same people?

[mfbukowski]

I am out of my specialty here but find this interesting

Inventing Mayas

Were the Mayas of colonial Yucatan actually Mayas? In terms of both the

identities they claimed and those assigned to them, they were not.Colonial-era evidence

shows that the native inhabitants of the peninsula, whom modern scholars

identify as “Maya,” did not consistently call themselves that or any other name that

indicated they saw themselves as members of a common ethnic group. Nor did

Spaniards or Africans in colonial Yucatan refer to the Mayas as “Mayas.”

http://www.osea-cite.org/class/readings/YucMaya2_Restall_Ethnogenesis.pdf

[mfbukowski]

Are you claiming the Maya and the Nephites are the same people?

No, I wouldn't do that- I really don't know much about it and readily admit that. But if I am not mistaken it is Mark Wright's position that the Nephites possibly were a sub-culture among the Maya, perhaps as American LDS are a subculture within the larger American culture.

I admit that I don't have sufficient knowledge of Meso America to evaluate this idea- the area in which I claim some expertise is philosophy, especially epistemology- but I think everyone here knows that

Edit:

I think it is an interesting idea, but I am certainly not equipped to argue it with any real expertise

In the Book of Jacob there is a passage where essentially he says that he will no longer describe the "Lamanites" as a racial group, nor the "Nephites" as one either

I think that the "Lamanites" were more as we would see who we used to call "gentiles" - ie non-members and the "Nephites"- or whatever word they used- were the "members"

Edited March 24, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Dan Vogel]

No, I wouldn't do that- I really don't know much about it and readily admit that. But if I am not mistaken it is Mark Wright's position that the Nephites possibly were a sub-culture among the Maya, perhaps as American LDS are a subculture within the larger American culture.

I admit that I don't have sufficient knowledge of Meso America to evaluate this idea- the area in which I claim some expertise is philosophy, especially epistemology- but I think everyone here knows that

Edit:

I think it is an interesting idea, but I am certainly not equipped to argue it with any real expertise

In the Book of Jacob there is a passage where essentially he says that he will no longer describe the "Lamanites" as a racial group, nor the "Nephites" as one either

I think that the "Lamanites" were more as we would see who we used to call "gentiles" - ie non-members and the "Nephites"- or whatever word they used- were the "members"

It's a theory I think doesn't fit the BOM.

[mfbukowski]

From the above linked text:

Equally rare, and comprising the fourth category in Table 1, are instances where

“Maya” refers to people. As references are so few, patterns can only be tentatively

identified. But the examples suggest that the term was mostly applied by Mayas to

Maya “others” or outsiders, specifically Yucatec natives of another region or class.

One usage in this context was by nobles in reference to commoners, with the term

68 The Journal of Latin American Anthropology

seemingly somewhat derogatory. Thus when applied to Mayas of another region,

the term sometimes implied that such people were of lesser status, although at other

times the reference seems neutral.Native perspectives on the Spanish Conquest are

the context for one such set of derogatory references,with “Maya” being designated

to the natives of communities who were slower to accommodate the invaders.

I don't know what I am talking about, but here doesn't "Maya" seem to have the same usage as the word "Lamanite" in the BOM?

[mfbukowski]

It's a theory I think doesn't fit the BOM.

Well I think Mark Wright would disagree.

[Dan Vogel]

No, I wouldn't do that- I really don't know much about it and readily admit that. But if I am not mistaken it is Mark Wright's position that the Nephites possibly were a sub-culture among the Maya, perhaps as American LDS are a subculture within the larger American culture.

I admit that I don't have sufficient knowledge of Meso America to evaluate this idea- the area in which I claim some expertise is philosophy, especially epistemology- but I think everyone here knows that

Edit:

I think it is an interesting idea, but I am certainly not equipped to argue it with any real expertise

In the Book of Jacob there is a passage where essentially he says that he will no longer describe the "Lamanites" as a racial group, nor the "Nephites" as one either

I think that the "Lamanites" were more as we would see who we used to call "gentiles" - ie non-members and the "Nephites"- or whatever word they used- were the "members"

I think you are reading too much into the text.

[mfbukowski]

I think you are reading too much into the text.

The bottom line is that the people we now term the "Maya" did not think of themselves as an ethnicity or as a "people" but were more concerned with being from a family line, or a specific village, or what we may now call something like a "tribe", and in fact the term "Maya" itself usually applied to group other than the speaker's own group.

As a total rank amateur in this area, I think that is consistent with the use of the words Nephite and Lamanite in the BOM, and also consistent with this passage:

Jacob 1:12

12 And it came to pass that Nephi died.

13 Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites.

14 But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Laminates that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

In fact, the Jacob passage is exactly what Restall describes in his article on Mayan ethnogenesis. In this context, in Jacob's arbitrary designation of all these other groups by the name "Lamanite", Jacob uses that word exactly as Restall says that the word "Mayan" was used.