Bom Witnesses: Vogel Responds To Apologists

[mfbukowski]

Only in a scientific sense. History is not a science. Do you discount historical evidence? And it's not ad hoc, because group hallucination isn't a phenomenon I made up.

Have you even read any of my posts about group hallucination? You haven't answered them. I think everyone is aware that history is not a science, and that is the entire problem.

"Only in a scientific sense"? Fine then I agree. You cannot prove your case in any scientific way whatsoever. You take it all on faith. Good for you. I am afraid my faith differs from you, but at least you understand what it means to have something give meaning to your life that you cannot prove.

On the other hand, I call that "religion".

[mfbukowski]

Of course, Bill overstates his case. No one would introduce the concept of group hallucination in a non-visionary setting. That would be totally unconvincing. The possibility of group hallucination exists for this situation, but it's not automatic. As I said before, it's a legitimate approach for those who have concluded the BOM is fiction.

Yes I agree. As long as you have a preconceived idea that the BOM is fiction, yours is a perfect rationalization for its origin. Yours is a non-scientific position based on faith, but a fine rationalization for your beliefs. You are a fine apologist for your beliefs.

[mfbukowski]

I'm still stuck on the statement that the church is no longer like it was in Kirtland. (My internal response was: Well... duh?)

There seems to be a lot of that going on around here!

[Buzzard]

No Nephites = no plates = no angel with plates = hallucination

Or, to put it another way...No hallucination=actually saw the plates=Saw the angel with the plates=Nephites!

[mfbukowski]

Or, to put it another way...No hallucination=actually saw the plates=Saw the angel with the plates=Nephites!

LOL that works just as well.

Of course if the Nephites were living among the Maya, as many now think possible, there WERE "Nephites", it's just that they didn't leave a whole lot of signs say "This is a Nephite Temple" in reformed Egyptian lying around outside their temples.

So in that case, "Nephites = plates = angel with plates = no hallucination" according to the same logic.

Edited March 20, 2012 by mfbukowski

[LDSToronto]

LOL that works just as well.

Of course if the Nephites were living among the Maya, as many now think possible, there WERE "Nephites", it's just that they didn't leave a whole lot of signs say "This is a Nephite Temple" in reformed Egyptian lying around outside their temples.

What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?

H.

[wenglund]

In other words, the lack of historicity for the BOM makes hallucination probable.

By this same reasoning, missing links in evolution make hallucination probable.

Gee, isn't non-scientific, theory-driven history fun!?!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?

H.

The Book of Mormon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

What traces of existence did the Nephites leave behind?

H.

Suppose the Democrats existed two thousand years ago. Or the LDS church for that matter. No newspapers, no internet, any perishable documents would have perished.

That is MY stupid analogy. One of the guys who is a scholar in this area is Mark Wright- after a quick google search, I found this paper. I am sure there are many here who could point you to his work better than I can.

http://byu.academia.edu/MarkWright/Papers/805749/A_Study_of_Classic_Maya_Rulership

Edited March 20, 2012 by mfbukowski

[LDSToronto]

The Book of Mormon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Nephites existed because they wrote The Book of Mormon; and we know this is true because The Book of Mormon speaks of Nephites who wrote The Book of Mormon.

Is there a logical fallacy here?

H.

[LDSToronto]

Suppose the Democrats existed two thousand years ago. Or the LDS church for that matter. No newspapers, no internet, any perishable documents would have perished.

That is MY stupid analogy. One of the guys who is a scholar in this area is Mark Wright- after a quick google search, I found this paper. I am sure there are many here who could point you to his work better than I can.

http://byu.academia...._Maya_Rulership

I imagine many things existed 1000's of years ago. Without evidence they are just imaginations. But I'm willing to be wrong. What section in Wright's dissertation supports the notion that Nephites lived amongst the Mayans, leaving no trace, but are somehow detectable?

H.

[mfbukowski]

Nephites existed because they wrote The Book of Mormon; and we know this is true because The Book of Mormon speaks of Nephites who wrote The Book of Mormon.

Is there a logical fallacy here?

H.

There would be if the Nephites existed because they wrote the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately for you, they didn't. They had a few more reasons for existing than just writing the BOM.

Who built stonehenge? They only left one artifact, but there are many evidences for the historicity of the BOM

[wenglund]

Is there a logical fallacy here? H.

Yes, it is called a straw man. I presented no such argument, but I simply answered your question. It would be like were you to ask "what traces of existence have I left behind?" and I were to answer, "my last post."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

I imagine many things existed 1000's of years ago. Without evidence they are just imaginations. But I'm willing to be wrong. What section in Wright's dissertation supports the notion that Nephites lived amongst the Mayans, leaving no trace, but are somehow detectable?

H.

I can't remember the name he posts under here - something like "...baz"

I'm just a philosopher not a scholar. Somebody?

[LDSToronto]

Yes, it is called a straw man. I presented no such argument, but I simply answered your question. It would be like were you to ask "what traces of existence have I left behind?" and I were to answer, "my last post."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks to the marvels of technology, we can establish that you authored your last post. What evidence exists that a race of people, known as the Nephites, existed and produced a few people that authored The Book of Mormon?

H.

[LDSToronto]

There would be if the Nephites existed because they wrote the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately for you, they didn't. They had a few more reasons for existing than just writing the BOM.

Please provide evidence that a race of people known as the Nephites existed. Wade claims that the existence of The Book of Mormon is proof enough. If that is the case, then 'The Catcher in the Rye' is proof enough that Holden Caufield existed.

H.

[altersteve]

Thanks to the marvels of technology, we can establish that you authored your last post. What evidence exists that a race of people, known as the Nephites, existed and produced a few people that authored The Book of Mormon?

H.

The evidence exists, but your views of the Book of Mormon will influence how you interpret that evidence. So no amount of evidence by itself is going to be convincing. We believe God has a reason for that.

[LDSToronto]

The evidence exists, but your views of the Book of Mormon will influence how you interpret that evidence. So no amount of evidence by itself is going to be convincing. We believe God has a reason for that.

Untrue. You have no idea how I will interpret evidence. Please don't use that as an excuse to withhold. If you have evidence, let it speak for itself.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Let's put it another way - if The Book of Mormon didn't exist, or was about to come forth, say, in 10 years, would evidence exist that shows a race of people (to be known as the Nephites) existed?

In other words, take The Book of Mormon out of the equation; what evidence remains?

H.

[LDSToronto]

I can't remember the name he posts under here - something like "...baz"

I'm just a philosopher not a scholar. Somebody?

Wait, didn't you read the paper you referenced in support of the claim that the Nephites lived amongst the Mayans but left no trace? Can you tell me which part of that long paper supports your claim?

H.

[wenglund]

Thanks to the marvels of technology, we can establish that you authored your last post.

Even were you correct, so?

What evidence exists that a race of people, known as the Nephites, existed and produced a few people that authored The Book of Mormon?

Again, the Book of Mormon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Let's put it another way - if The Book of Mormon didn't exist, or was about to come forth, say, in 10 years, would evidence exist that shows a race of people (to be known as the Nephites) existed?

In other words, take The Book of Mormon out of the equation; what evidence remains?

H.

The words of God and angels.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LDSToronto]

What evidence exists that a race of people, known as the Nephites, existed and produced a few people that authored The Book of Mormon?

Again, the Book of Mormon.

Well, no... The Book of Mormon exists because Joseph produced a manuscript. The contents of The Book of Mormon claim that a race of people called Nephites existed and further claim individuals of Nephite descent authored the book. This claim Nephites existed because The Book of Mormon references Nephites and is narrated by Nephites is not evidence of Nephite existence any more than 'Moby ****' is evidence of the existence of Ishmael, the books narrator.

As I said earlier, take the Book of Mormon out of the equation and provide evidence of the Nephite civilization.

I know you understand what I am getting at, so I'll assume that you have no better answer.

H.

[LDSToronto]

The words of God and angels.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, at least you are being honest. If God and angels, then we have nothing but the honest word of those who have heard and seen what God and angels produced.

I think you have kind of proven Dan's points.

H.

[wenglund]

Well, no... The Book of Mormon exists because Joseph produced a manuscript. The contents of The Book of Mormon claim that a race of people called Nephites existed and further claim individuals of Nephite descent authored the book. This claim Nephites existed because The Book of Mormon references Nephites and is narrated by Nephites is not evidence of Nephite existence any more than 'Moby ****' is evidence of the existence of Ishmael, the books narrator.

Actually, yes...The Book of Mormon is as much evidence for the existence of Nephites as personal journals, translated by someone else, are evidence of the existence of their respective authors.

As I said earlier, take the Book of Mormon out of the equation and provide evidence of the Nephite civilization.

Again, revelations from God and angels.

I know you understand what I am getting at...

I wish I could say the same in return.

, so I'll assume that you have no better answer. H.

For my own purposes, I don't need a better answer.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-