Bom Witnesses: Vogel Responds To Apologists

[mfbukowski]

That Troy was found with little effort doesn't mean the same will be true for the BOM.

Gosh, really?

That's why I referred to Atlantis. Which analogy best fits the BOM? Archaeologically, we know far more about Central America than Schlemann knew about the area where Troy was found.

I suppose we will better know which analogy fits the BOM after Nephites are proven scientifically or Atlantis is found, or never found.

How are we supposed to know which analogy fits best? What kind of question is that?

The entire point is that occasionally legendary cities/civilizations ARE in fact "found". Which analogy fits the as yet unformed data is pretty irrelevant.

[cdowis]

That Troy was found with little effort doesn't mean the same will be true for the BOM. That's why I referred to Atlantis. Which analogy best fits the BOM? Archaeologically, we know far more about Central America than Schlemann knew about the area where Troy was found.

I think most of apologists agree that BOM sites have already been discovered -- the issue is identification.

Again, I ask you, how do we resolve the issue of identification. There are virtually no extant written records, and, with very few exceptions, archeologists do not know the ancient names of cities or geographic features.

There are already several sites which we tentatively identify as BOM sites, based on the information in the BOM text. But in order to give a positive identity, please give us some reasonable suggestions, rather than silliness.

We have already found our "Troy", but just can't prove it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by cdowis

[wenglund]

That Troy was found with little effort doesn't mean the same will be true for the BOM. That's why I referred to Atlantis. Which analogy best fits the BOM? Archaeologically, we know far more about Central America than Schlemann knew about the area where Troy was found.

The Troy analogy works best in making the intended point in relation to the BoM--i.e. just because archaeological evidence hasn't yet been found for a particular city, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

Again, I ask you, how do we resolve the issue of identification.

Have you actually presented that question to professional archeologists? They seem quite capable of identifying artifacts, and tracing human migrations, without the benefit of divinely translated historical manuscript describing the migrations, languages, animals, weapons, etc. of the civilization you are hoping to find.

Its seems that you are wasting your time asking the question here.

[mfbukowski]

Have you actually presented that question to professional archeologists? They seem quite capable of identifying artifacts, and tracing human migrations, without the benefit of divinely translated historical manuscript describing the migrations, languages, animals, weapons, etc. of the civilization you are hoping to find.

Its seems that you are wasting your time asking the question here.

The entire point is that we accept this on faith. One would think you would know that.

Would you ask an archaeologist for evidence that Jesus is Christ the Son of God and savior of the world? You really don't understand that point?

How could anyone be so dense? The entire point is that archaeology has nothing to do with proving or disproving faith and those who think it does are sadly mistaken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism

Can an archaeologist answer the question about whether or not abortion is wrong? There are certain questions which have nothing to do with science.

Edited March 29, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Jaybear]

The entire point is that we accept this on faith. One would think you would know that.

I think you missed the point of the discussion.

The questioned asked was, assuming the BOM is historical and Nephites were real, how would one go about identifying Nephite artifacts.

This is a much different question than say, how does one prove the existence of heaven. Which as we both know is not subject to scientific proof.

Would you ask an archaeologist for evidence that Jesus is Christ the Son of God and savior of the world?

No, I would not. But the analogous question is whether I would ask an archeologist if there was city called Bethlehem, or Sodom, or if their was a global flood that immersed the world some 5,000 years ago.

You really don't understand that point?How could anyone be so dense?

I believe I understand more than you think I understand.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Jaybear

[cdowis]

Have you actually presented that question to professional archeologists? They seem quite capable of identifying artifacts, and tracing human migrations, without the benefit of divinely translated historical manuscript describing the migrations, languages, animals, weapons, etc. of the civilization you are hoping to find.

Its seems that you are wasting your time asking the question here.

OK, go ahead and you do this, and tell us your results.

The professional archeologists will need to carefully read the book delivered by an angel (the BOM), and do an extensive and detailed analysis of the BOM text for Nephite culture. They need to determine the exact geographic locations of BOM cities and geographic features.

Tell us how it went when you tell them that this is their responsibility as professional archeologists. Tell us your results.

I believe I understand more than you think I understand.

I'm sure you do.

As for me, when a BOM critic demands archeological proof, Nephite/Lamanites artifacts, I have no clue on how to solve the problem of identification. The request is unreasonable until that problem has been resolved.

But you already knew that.

Edited March 29, 2012 by cdowis

[Jaybear]

OK, go ahead and you do this, and tell us your results.

I take it then your question was purely rhetorical. You weren't sincerely looking for an answer to your question ... how does one go about identifying Nephite artifacts.

The professional archeologists will need to carefully read the book delivered by an angel (the BOM), and do an extensive and detailed analysis of the BOM text for Nephite culture. They need to determine the exact geographic locations of BOM cities and geographic features.

Are you a professional archeologist? If not, it seems presumptuous to answer your own question.

Tell us how it went when you tell them that this is their responsibility as professional archeologists. Tell us your results.

Why would I tell them that? I didn't say, and wouldn't say it their responsibility. I simply said they would be better suited than random strangers on a message board to answer YOUR QUESTION.

The point seems rather obvious.

As for me, I have no clue on how to solve the problem of identification and those critics who demand Nephite artifacts, perhaps they have an answer.

The major problem that keeps us from identifying Nephite artifacts, is the fact that Nephites never existed.

If Hebrews had actually migrated to the new world circa 600 BC, bringing with them old world animals, plants, languages, religion, ships, weapons and other technology, and established a civilization that lasted a thousand years, professional archeologists would no know how to find traces of these people.

.

[mfbukowski]

I think you missed the point of the discussion.

The questioned asked was, assuming the BOM is historical and Nephites were real, how would one go about identifying Nephite artifacts.

No, in fact that wasn't the question at all.

I think most of apologists agree that BOM sites have already been discovered -- the issue is identification.

Notice the word "site" is NOT the word "artifact". We were discussing the Troy example, remember??

[mfbukowski]

This is a much different question than say, how does one prove the existence of heaven. Which as we both know is not subject to scientific proof.

No, I would not. But the analogous question is whether I would ask an archeologist if there was city called Bethlehem, or Sodom, or if their was a global flood that immersed the world some 5,000 years ago.

Which is of course totally irrelevant to the spiritual truths those alleged events teach about.

[Jaybear]

No, in fact that wasn't the question at all.

Notice the word "site" is NOT the word "artifact". We were discussing the Troy example, remember??

Picking nits. Same concept, but much larger scale.

Frankly, looking for an entire Nephite site seems a tad bit ambitious when you have yet to identify a single Nephite artifact.

Which is of course totally irrelevant to the spiritual truths those alleged events teach about.

On that, we agree.

[mfbukowski]

Picking nits. Same concept, but much larger scale.

Frankly, looking for an entire Nephite site seems a tad bit ambitious when you have yet to identify a single Nephite artifact.

On that, we agree.

Please tell me what an LDS spoon looks like. An LDS plate? A chapel which is distinguishable from a Baptist church?

What artifacts do we have which will survive (in your view) say, global climate change and a plunge into the dark ages 2000 years from now, when perhaps the present US looks like the Sahara desert and we all live at the Norh Pole ? (Make sure none of those artifacts use modern technology of course since the Nephites had none)

Edited March 31, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cdowis]

I take it then your question was purely rhetorical. You weren't sincerely looking for an answer to your question ... how does one go about identifying Nephite artifacts.

That was a legitimate question for LDS or Critic. Dan Vogel gave an attempt, but it became clear that he was not very familiar with the BOM text. If anyone is going to ask for archeological evidence of the BOM, they need to make an honest effort on how we can identify an artifact or even an entire site.

This is a difficult issue for any attempt at "BOM archeology".

Are you a professional archeologist? If not, it seems presumptuous to answer your own question.

No I am not, but archeology has historically been assisted by the amateur. Take a look, for example, at "Cracking the Mayan Code". While my knowledge of archeology is limited, I am very familiar with the text of the BOM, and that is a failing for almost all archeologists.

Why would I tell them that? I didn't say, and wouldn't say it their responsibility. I simply said they would be better suited than random strangers on a message board to answer YOUR QUESTION.

The point seems rather obvious.

The major problem that keeps us from identifying Nephite artifacts, is the fact that Nephites never existed.

I am already familiar with your opinion on the matter.

If Hebrews had actually migrated to the new world circa 600 BC, bringing with them old world animals, plants, languages, religion, ships, weapons and other technology, and established a civilization that lasted a thousand years, professional archeologists would no know how to find traces of these people.

We have already gone over that logic several times, but I guess you forgot. It is based on several models of flawed logic.

But whatever floats your boat.

.

Edited March 31, 2012 by cdowis

[blackstrap]

I think that there is a difference in the theological implications of a "nephite" find.Joseph claims the BoM was delivered to him by an angel and he translated it with the gift and power of God.Such is not said of the Bible. Hence ,if a verifiable Nephite site was found by 'secular' archeologists,and published accurately to the world,it would also tend to verify the BoM as a God delivered text and not the musings of a very imaginative lad. Critics would have a tough time explaining such a find.(no doubt they would still try mightily).Old world sites that verify some of the Bible have no such effect because the Bible has a much different history of its presence.