ERMD Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 He didn't say the Aaronic priesthood shouldn't have any specific responsibilities. He was just pointing out that many of the things we have the Deacons and Teachers do are assigned because of policy and tradition, and not scriptural mandate.I understand that. D&C 13 deals specifically with the ordinance of the sacrament. The duties of deacons and teachers and their roles in the ordinance have nothing to do with policy and tradition, rather they are a matter of priesthood keys and reponsibilities.
Gohan Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 I've been taught that Deacons (even if the Priesthood office the individual holds is "higher") are not allowed to touch (steady) the cloth that covers the elements when the Priests are covering or uncovering the two symbols.I've never heard it before, but have been in many wards where the deacon or teachers have helped to straight out a cloth that folded weird or didn't lay right in place that the priests couldn't reach as it was being used during sacrament meeting. It's never been an issue, which makes me wonder.Agreed with Bluebell, I was told to help the priests out and straighten out the cloth if it hadn't folded right or something like unto that.
Cobalt-70 Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 I understand that. D&C 13 deals specifically with the ordinance of the sacrament. The duties of deacons and teachers and their roles in the ordinance have nothing to do with policy and tradition, rather they are a matter of priesthood keys and reponsibilities.D&C 13 mentions "ministering of angels," "the gospel of repentance," and "baptism," but not the Sacrament. It also refers obliquely to animal sacrifices.
ERMD Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 You're almost there. Repentance and the ministering of angels are intimately related to the ordinance of the sacrament. Think of who holds the keys to the offices of the Aaronic Priesthood and what the role of each of those offices is with respect to the ordinance. Those roles are not merely traditional.
mfbukowski Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 I was filling the font yestarday for some baptisms and had to run out to get me lunch at a local eatery and bring it back to the Church. There was a primary thing going on and I just asked a friend of mine to check the font just in case it overflowed, kids swimming in it or someone drops something in etc. Anyways while I was gone she checked on it and it had encountered some problem which she fixed. Anyways at Church today someone who saw her doing this chided me a bit and reminded me that filling the font was a Priesthood duty. I believe if you can give it you better sure as heck can take it so I said where in the world did he hear that and he said that its "always been like that" so whatever I blew it off but was wondering if anyone else has ever heard this? I wasn't aware that turning a lever and making sure its not overflowing et al was a Priesthood duty!I am sure it says somewhere in the Proclamation that only menfolk get to work on plumbing.At least that is the way it is around my house, and everything my wife tells me is True Doctrine at least for me anyway.
Verum Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I understand that. D&C 13 deals specifically with the ordinance of the sacrament. The duties of deacons and teachers and their roles in the ordinance have nothing to do with policy and tradition, rather they are a matter of priesthood keys and reponsibilities.Where does it say in section 13 that specific priesthood duties include cleaning sacrament trays, or filling water or placing bread into a tray? I think I understand section 13 pretty well. I think cinepro summarized my point pretty accurately by saying that its not that priesthood responsibilities aren't important or unnecessary, its some of the duties and tasks I think that are unnecessarily put under the umbrella of priesthood responsibility. Edited March 13, 2012 by Verum
KevinG Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Technically it is the Deacons who should pick up slobbery cheerios off the floor after Sacrament meeting.
Deborah Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really have a thread devoted to who should fill the baptismal font or clean the sacrament trays? I would expect if someone is doing it wrong their bishop will let them know but I can't see the rules being so Pharisaic that someone will get zapped for doing it wrong.
ERMD Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Where does it say in section 13 that specific priesthood duties include cleaning sacrament trays, or filling water or placing bread into a tray? I think I understand section 13 pretty well. I think cinepro summarized my point pretty accurately by saying that its not that priesthood responsibilities aren't important or unnecessary, its some of the duties and tasks I think that are unnecessarily put under the umbrella of priesthood responsibility.Preparing, blessing, and passing the emblems of the sacrament are priesthood duties carried out under the direction and keys of the quorum presidents. These keys are specified in section 13. The duties of the Aaronic Priesthood with respect to the sacrament are not determined by convenience, tradition, sexism, etc. Read this: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/11/the-aaronic-priesthood-and-the-sacrament?lang=eng
KevinG Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really have a thread devoted to who should fill the baptismal font or clean the sacrament trays? I would expect if someone is doing it wrong their bishop will let them know but I can't see the rules being so Pharisaic that someone will get zapped for doing it wrong.Last words of Uzzah. 1
Duncan Posted March 13, 2012 Author Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really have a thread devoted to who should fill the baptismal font or clean the sacrament trays? I would expect if someone is doing it wrong their bishop will let them know but I can't see the rules being so Pharisaic that someone will get zapped for doing it wrong.I wouldn't have thought so until saturday! But its stuff like this that we can re-evaluate to see as to why we do what we do and to challenge our thinking. I also asked another question some months ago about asking women about who should be the new Stake President as got some great insight
KevinG Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Tradition and Doctrine sometimes dovetail nicely...“Bishoprics and branch presidencies preside over the Aaronic Priesthood in wards and branches. They, along with quorum advisers, will take every precaution to see that the sacrament is prepared in advance of the meeting and that the passing of the sacrament has been thoroughly planned. Those who administer the sacrament are to look their best and be dressed appropriately. White shirts not only look nice, but they are a gentle reminder of other sacred rites, such as baptismal and temple ordinances, at which white clothing is also worn. (Russell M. Nelson, “Worshiping at Sacrament Meeting,” Ensign, Aug. 2004, 25)”If someone gets their tail in a knot over women filling fonts or cleaning Sacrament trays it is their problem, but it may be our responsibility to avoid situations that cause distress to even the most "traditional" Saint.If the boys do their duty we don't have to wonder about the girls cleaning up after us.
Deborah Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Last words of Uzzah. Ha, ha! However, there was a specific commandment there.D&C 20:46 states "The priest’s duty is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, and baptize, and administer the sacrament," I would assume that would also incorporate preparing the sacrament, but I don't see anything about cleaning the sacrament trays, and it doesn't say anything about who takes care of the sacrament cloth so I would assume these are matters of tradition, though I expect it's the women who wash the cloths. Priesthood duties are specifically outlined but it seems that those things which aid in carrying out those duties are a matter of custom and what the Bishop prefers.As to filling the fonts, since baptisms used to be done in lakes and rivers, any rules regarding the filling of the font are of fairly recent origin and based on the custom of the times, not commandment.
Deborah Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 If the boys do their duty we don't have to wonder about the girls cleaning up after us.Amen! My boys liked to bake but they hated cleaning up their messes and I had to nag them that if they made the mess they cleaned it up.
Calm Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 From Handbook 2: 20.4.2 Preparing the Sacrament Teachers, priests, and Melchizedek Priesthood holders may prepare thesacrament. Before the meeting, those who prepare the sacrament ensure that bread trays with unbroken bread, water trays with cups filled with fresh water, and tablecloths are in place. After the meeting, these brethren clear away the trays and tablecloths. Sacrament tablecloths should be white, nontransparent, clean, and pressed. Sacrament trays should be kept clean. Sacrament trays and cups are available from Church Distribution Services. 20.4.3 Blessing and Passing the Sacrament Priests and Melchizedek Priesthood holders may bless the sacrament. Deacons, teachers, priests, and Melchizedek Priesthood holders may pass the sacrament. As the congregation sings the sacrament hymn, the priesthood holders who will bless the sacrament reverently stand, remove the cloth that covers the bread trays, and break the bread into bite-sized pieces. When they finish breaking the bread, they sit down and join in singing the hymn. Vocal solos or instrumental music may not replace this hymn. Following the hymn, the person who blesses the bread kneels and offers the sacrament prayer for the bread. The sacrament prayers were revealed by the Lord (see D&C 20:77, 79; Moroni 4–5). The bishop makes sure they are spoken clearly, accurately, and with dignity. If the person who blesses the sacrament makes an error in the wording but corrects it himself, no further correction is required. If the person does not correct an error, the bishop indicates that he should repeat the prayer correctly. In doing so, the bishop should be careful to avoid causing embarrassment or distracting from the sacred nature of the ordinance. After the prayer, deacons or other priesthood holders pass the bread to the congregation in a reverent and orderly manner. The presiding officer receives the sacrament first. The bishop (or a counselor in his absence) presides at the sacrament meeting unless a member of the stake presidency, an Area Seventy, or a General Authority is sitting on the stand. A high councilor does not preside and does not receive the sacramentfirst. While the presiding officer is receiving the sacrament, others who are passing the sacrament may walk to their designated places. After a priesthood holder hands a sacrament tray to a member, others may pass the tray from one to another for convenience. When brethren finish passing the bread, they return the trays to thesacrament table. Those officiating at the sacrament table place the cloth over the bread trays and uncover the water trays. The person who blesses the water then kneels and offers the sacrament prayer for the water (seeD&C 20:79), substituting the word water for wine. After the prayer, deacons or other priesthood holders pass the water to the congregation. When they finish, they return the trays to the sacramenttable, wait for the officiators to cover the trays, then reverently take their seats. Everyone who attends the meeting should be reverent during the entire ordinance of blessing and passing the sacrament. No music should be played during the prayer, while the sacrament is being passed, or as a postlude after the sacrament is passed. 20.3.5 Baptismal Fonts Missionaries coordinate their use of a baptismal font with the agent bishop or with another person designated by the stake presidency. The schedule for using a font should permit missionaries to baptize once a week or more often, if necessary. However, missionaries should not expect to use a font at unreasonable times. No charge is made for using a baptismal font. A responsible adult should be present while the baptismal font is filling and remain until it is empty and secured. The font should be drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service. Appropriate safety precautions should be taken whenever water is in the font. When the font is not in use, all doors to it should be closed and locked. When a baptismal font is not available, any body of water that is safe may be used for a baptism if it is large enough to immerse the person and to permit the priesthood holder who performs the baptism to stand in the water with the person. Water is not dedicated for baptisms. 1
zerinus Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) From Handbook 2:20.3.5 Baptismal FontsMissionaries coordinate their use of a baptismal font with the agent bishop or with another person designated by the stake presidency. The schedule for using a font should permit missionaries to baptize once a week or more often, if necessary. However, missionaries should not expect to use a font at unreasonable times. No charge is made for using a baptismal font.A responsible adult should be present while the baptismal font is filling and remain until it is empty and secured. The font should be drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service. Appropriate safety precautions should be taken whenever water is in the font.When the font is not in use, all doors to it should be closed and locked.When a baptismal font is not available, any body of water that is safe may be used for a baptism if it is large enough to immerse the person and to permit the priesthood holder who performs the baptism to stand in the water with the person. Water is not dedicated for baptisms. so women can fill the font!!! i knew it!!The way it looks to me is that you were the "responsible adult" who was assigned the task of filling the font and ensure its safety. You shirked that responsibility by passing the buck to a sister, and went to have your dinner instead. Afterwards you were rightly chastened for doing so, and now you are kicking up a lot of fuss. Edited March 14, 2012 by zerinus
ERMD Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 For baptisms of children of record, our Primary presidency makes sure the font is good to go.
Deborah Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 The way it looks to me is that you were the "responsible adult" who was assigned the task of filling the font and ensure its safety. You shirked that responsibility by passing the buck to a sister, and went to have your dinner instead. Afterwards you were rightly chastened for doing so, and now you are kicking up a lot of fuss.Seriously? It only says a responsible adult should be present. If another responsible adult is present and willing to do it what's the problem? 1
Gohan Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) The way it looks to me is that you were the "responsible adult" who was assigned the task of filling the font and ensure its safety. You shirked that responsibility by passing the buck to a sister, and went to have your dinner instead. Afterwards you were rightly chastened for doing so, and now you are kicking up a lot of fuss.Nice attack to distract from the topic!Anyway, it seems Duncan was responsible enough to find someone else responsible - in this case a responsible sister - to cover him when he left. And it sounds like she did a decent job watching over it/fixing it from the OP. Edited March 14, 2012 by Gohan
zerinus Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 Nice personal (and judgmental) attack to distract from the topic!Anyway, it seems Duncan was responsible enough to find someone else responsible - in this case a responsible sister - to cover him when he left. And it sounds like she did a decent job watching over it/fixing it from the OP.Apparently it didn't go quite so smoothly. Evidently she had experienced problems with it, and other people noticed, and thought it was not what he should have done, and told him so.
zerinus Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 Seriously? It only says a responsible adult should be present. If another responsible adult is present and willing to do it what's the problem?If you are the "responsible adult," and been given the "responsibility," then it is not yours to pass it on to someone else; but to inform the person who gave you the responsibility, and let him decide who the next "responsible adult" should be.
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