Not Even One Senine?

[inquiringmind]

What does this mean?

Therefore, ^aif ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be ^areconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full ^bpurpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 ^aAgree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one ^asenine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

http://classic.scrip...n/3_ne/12/26#26

I thought those who inherit a telestial glory have to do time in prison to pay off some of their debt.

And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory... For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they might not ^bsuffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^a<a href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/19/17a" title="Mark 14: 36; Alma 11: 40 (40-41); D&C 29: 17." type="A">suffer even as I;

http://classic.scrip...ds.org/en/dc/19

Why does Christ seem to say here (in 3 Nephi 12:23-26) that not even one senine of the debt can be paid off in prison?

Edited March 6, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Freedom]

My understanding is that, paying the senine is reconciling and repenting. We cannot sin against someone, die, and then hope to rectify our misdeeds. We must suffer even as Jesus did suffer. We must all be made clean to stand before the judgement bar of God but those who repent during mortality are, according to they parable, paying back the senine. This fits well the your D&C quote that states those who do not repent (who go to prison without paying the senine) must suffer an eternal punishment.

Paying the senine, then, is a metaphor for repentance in my opinion.

[BCSpace]

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one ^asenine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

"Prison", or the punishment of hell, occurs before the judgement and the reception of Telestial glory. So I think it means you have a lot to pay (uttermost senine) and not being able to pay one senine means there is nothing you can do by then to mitigate it (this life is the time to prepare to met God).

Edit: The specific doctrine that I can find on it has to do with Matthew 5:26:

Sin Destroys Hope

The Lord has made it very plain that those who involve themselves in the grosser sins of this fallen world and then fail to repent cannot have a hope of a first resurrection. Rather, they are “thrust down to hell” ( D&C 76:84 ), where they suffer and pay the uttermost farthing ( Matthew 5:26 ). Ultimately, as John relates, they suffer the second death ( Revelation 21:8 ), for where God and Christ dwell they cannot come ( D&C 76:112 ).

Lest we feel that we need not concern ourselves with the sins listed above, it would be well to remember that the Lord has said that he has seen abominations in the church that bears his name ( D&C 50:4 ). He has told us that we must not kill nor do anything like unto it. Moreover, sexual sin is a serious problem in the Church today and is the greatest cause for disfellowshipment and excommunication. The occult and other manifestations of sorcery run rampant in the world in which we live; and idolatry, or the worship of “things” other than the Lord, is prominent. Men walk in their own ways, after the image of [their] own God, whose image is in the likeness of the world.” ( D&C 1:16 .) Finally, the basic integrity of many has been so much compromised that they live a lie.

Without repentance there is no hope for the wicked.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/new-testament-institute-student-manual/nt-in-12-12-56.asp

Edited March 6, 2012 by BCSpace

[inquiringmind]

"Prison", or the punishment of hell, occurs before the judgement and the reception of Telestial glory. So I think it means you have a lot to pay (uttermost senine)

But if you can't pay even one senine while in prison, and you can't get out of prison until you've paid the last senine, wouldn't it follow that you never get out of prison?

[zerinus]

What does this mean?

http://classic.scrip...n/3_ne/12/26#26

I thought those who inherit a telestial glory have to do time in prison to pay off some of their debt.

http://classic.scrip...ds.org/en/dc/19

Why does Christ seem to say here (in 3 Nephi 12:23-26) that not even one senine of the debt can be paid off in prison?

You are quoting verses in scripture which contain ambiguity, and ignoring other passages in scripture which speak on the subject with clarity and remove the ambiguity. Where there are scriptures which speak with clarity on a subject, sticking to the ambiguous ones is not a productive exercise.

[inquiringmind]

You are quoting verses in scripture which contain ambiguity, and ignoring other passages in scripture which speak on the subject with clarity and remove the ambiguity. Where there are scriptures which speak with clarity on a subject, sticking to the ambiguous ones is not a productive exercise.

Christ is quoted in the first person here.

He's quoted as saying that the prisoners won't get out of prison until they've paid the utmost senine, and then saying that they can't pay even one senine while in prison.

I'd like to see some ambiguity here, but He seems to be saying there's no way out.

Where's the ambiguity?

[zerinus]

Christ is quoted in the first person here.

He's quoted as saying that the prisoners won't get out of prison until they've paid the utmost senine, and then saying that they can't pay even one senine while in prison.

I'd like to see some ambiguity here, but He seems to be saying there's no way out.

Where's the ambiguity?

It is obviously a metaphor for something. If you are incarcerated (according to ancient customs) for not paying your debt, you can come out of incarceration as soon as you find a way of paying your debt. If you already have the money (or other property which can be turned into cash), and can arrange for payment to be made for your debt, you can be released as soon as the payment is made. If not, you serve your full term of prison I suppose, whatever length of time that may be. I am not familiar what the legal procedures would have been in those days. I doubt if it means that you are going to stay in prison forever. If you had absolutely no means of paying, the least you could do would be to sell your services as a servant or slave to your creditor for a period of time until you had payed off your debt. That is one of the solutions suggested in the books of Moses:

Leviticus 25:

47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:

48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.

50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.

51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.

52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.

53 And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.

54 And if he be not redeemed in these years, then he shall go out in the year of jubile, both he, and his children with him.

55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

[cdowis]

It is a metaphor that when you are deceased (in spirit prison), it is too late to repent. You have to pay your debts (repent, take advantage of the atonement) before you die.

[inquiringmind]

It is a metaphor that when you are deceased (in spirit prison), it is too late to repent. You have to pay your debts (repent, take advantage of the atonement) before you die.

Then you're either saved or lost, and there is no telestial kingdom?

[TAO]

What does this mean?

http://classic.scrip...n/3_ne/12/26#26

I thought those who inherit a telestial glory have to do time in prison to pay off some of their debt.

http://classic.scrip...ds.org/en/dc/19

Why does Christ seem to say here (in 3 Nephi 12:23-26) that not even one senine of the debt can be paid off in prison?

I would agree with Canadian, the senine is repentance and sorrow, and thus, forgiveness is not able to be obtained without suffering.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast utterly repented. And while ye are in prison can ye even repent? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

"But if they would not repent they must ^a<a href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/19/17a" title="Mark 14: 36; Alma 11: 40 (40-41); D&C 29: 17." type="A">suffer even as I;"

In a sense, they aren't coming out of the prison, rather, the prison slowly erodes away around them as they pay their time. Rather than repent and escape, they must suffer your time, until the prison deteriorates away, even as Christ's did when he suffered for us. And then, they must come unto Christ in sackcloth and ashes, just as we must.

[Cobalt-70]

What does this mean?

http://classic.scrip...n/3_ne/12/26#26

I thought those who inherit a telestial glory have to do time in prison to pay off some of their debt.

http://classic.scrip...ds.org/en/dc/19

Why does Christ seem to say here (in 3 Nephi 12:23-26) that not even one senine of the debt can be paid off in prison?

I think this "spirit prison" analogy is entirely barking up the wrong tree. I don't think this has anything to do with spirit prison. This is nothing more than the Book of Mormon of Matthew 5:25-26, which was not intended as some profound eschatological metaphor. It just means that you should be agreeable with your enemy, because unless you make peace with your enemy, your enemy will ultimately extract from you far more than the price of peace.

[inquiringmind]

I think this "spirit prison" analogy is entirely barking up the wrong tree. I don't think this has anything to do with spirit prison. This is nothing more than the Book of Mormon of Matthew 5:25-26, which was not intended as some profound eschatological metaphor. It just means that you should be agreeable with your enemy, because unless you make peace with your enemy, your enemy will ultimately extract from you far more than the price of peace.

Thank you.

But is it always true that if you don't make peace with your enemy, "your enemy will ultimately extract from you far more than the price of peace"?

And what makes you so sure that Matt. 25:25-26 isn't a eschatological metaphor?

[Cobalt-70]

Thank you.

But is it always true that if you don't make peace with your enemy, "your enemy will ultimately extract from you far more than the price of peace"?

And what makes you so sure that Matt. []5:25-26 isn't a eschatological metaphor?

Because of the context. Matthew 5:21-26 are about making peace with others. Jesus was saying anger is as bad as murder, that you should put off the performance of sacraments if you have offended your siblings. The part about being cast into prison immediately follows that. It just means that instead of waiting to sued in court and then thrown into prison where you will have to pay the last penny, settle the matter immediately. The Book of Mormon simply notes that once you are in prison, you are not even going to be able to pay at all, so it is far worse for you than settling the matter immediately.

[zerinus]

Christ is quoted in the first person here.

He's quoted as saying that the prisoners won't get out of prison until they've paid the utmost senine, and then saying that they can't pay even one senine while in prison.

I'd like to see some ambiguity here, but He seems to be saying there's no way out.

Where's the ambiguity?

I have given more thought to this, and I am convinced that it means that you are going to stay there a long time, not that you will never get out. That is just the language of hyperbole that was (and is) common in oriental cultures and languages. The morale of the story is that it is better to repent in this life while you have the chance than to procrastinate the day of your repentance, because when you get to the other side it won't be so easy to get out of the situation as it is possible to do (though repentance) in this life.

[The Nehor]

I don't think this scripture has anything to do with the afterlife.

It is basically a warning not to tick people off. Be nice to people and they're less likely to try to take vengeance on you.When I worked with debt collectors they worked with the nice people (the agreers) and sought the full extent of the law against those who were jerks or evasive.

If it does have anything to do with the eternities then the adversary would be Satan. I can't imagine that Jesus is suggesting we come to terms with the devil in some reasonable way.

Edited March 10, 2012 by The Nehor

[inquiringmind]

It is obviously a metaphor for something. If you are incarcerated (according to ancient customs) for not paying your debt, you can come out of incarceration as soon as you find a way of paying your debt. If you already have the money (or other property which can be turned into cash), and can arrange for payment to be made for your debt, you can be released as soon as the payment is made. If not, you serve your full term of prison I suppose, whatever length of time that may be. I am not familiar what the legal procedures would have been in those days. I doubt if it means that you are going to stay in prison forever. If you had absolutely no means of paying, the least you could do would be to sell your services as a servant or slave to your creditor for a period of time until you had payed off your debt. That is one of the solutions suggested in the books of Moses:

Leviticus 25:

47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:

48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.

50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.

51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.

52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.

53 And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.

54 And if he be not redeemed in these years, then he shall go out in the year of jubile, both he, and his children with him.

55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

I think you may have something here.

All the Nephites (and even their Laminite neighbors) would have been Israelites (and the BOM says that they kept the Law of Moses, which would have included Leviticus 25:47-55.)

Thank you.

Edited March 17, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I think you may have something here.

All the Nephites (and even their Laminite neighbors) would have been Israelites (and the BOM says that they kept the Law of Moses, which would have included Leviticus 25:47-55.)

Thank you.

I've been looking at this, and there are still some things that bother me.

1.) The words are attributed to Jesus Himself.

2.) He says "verily, verily."

3.) He doesn't say "as long as the prison exists," or "until you repent and accept the atonement I paid for you."

He's quoted as saying "thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay." (3 Nephi 12:26.)

If Jesus says that His listeners can't get out of prison until they pay "the uttermost senine" (their whole debt), and He says (with a "verily, verily") that they can't pay even one senine (a fraction of the debt) while they're in prison, doesn't that kinda place Dante's famous sign ("abandon all hope, ye that enter herein") over a locked door?

How could anyone suffer their own sins and end up in a telestial kingdom?

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Nominee]

This is an extreme but if you murder someone, that life is over ~ no take backs. You cannot fix what you have done no matter how much remorse you may have. You cannot pay it better again. Even your own life would not be equal to the life loss. There's just no quick fix. You have to suffer the life of a murderer and that's that. You have to suffer the consequence. If you die and go to prison to suffer for your sin, you cannot pay the jailer or get out on good behavior. There's just no quick fix. You have to do the time. The time, I assume, is determined by your unrepentant sin. This is my understanding anyway. You can't pay your way out of it, you must suffer the fullest extent of the sin (which is a different form of payment, isn't it?). But that is not to say that your time to serve will never end.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Nominee

[TAO]

Inquiringmind, perhaps, like Cobalt said, he is talking about physical money. Senine is a measure of money after all (in the BoM).

[ERayR]

But if you can't pay even one senine while in prison, and you can't get out of prison until you've paid the last senine, wouldn't it follow that you never get out of prison?

Another way of pointing out the necessity of Christs atonement. If you can;t get out of prison without paying the price and you can't pay the price then someone must pay it for you thus Christ pays the price by the atonement.

[ERayR]

Christ is quoted in the first person here.

He's quoted as saying that the prisoners won't get out of prison until they've paid the utmost senine, and then saying that they can't pay even one senine while in prison.

I'd like to see some ambiguity here, but He seems to be saying there's no way out.

Where's the ambiguity?

The way out is in and through Jesus Christ.

[inquiringmind]

Inquiringmind, perhaps, like Cobalt said, he is talking about physical money. Senine is a measure of money after all (in the BoM).

But then, what would Christ's point be here?

Before you get baptized, or confirmed, or endowed, you'd better make sure you don't owe anyone any money--because if you do they might have you thrown in prison, and you'll never be able to earn the money to pay them back there (so you'll die there.)

Is that what He's saying?

What does that have to do with the rest of the context?

Another way of pointing out the necessity of Christs atonement. If you can;t get out of prison without paying the price and you can't pay the price then someone must pay it for you thus Christ pays the price by the atonement.

But He's not quoted as saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out until I settle the debt for you," He's quoted as saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

The way out is in and through Jesus Christ.

But being in some way reconciled to your brother (by paying the debt, or having it paid for you) isn't presented as an option after you're thrown into prison.

The picture painted after that seems to be "thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

Paying the debt, mortgaging your home, or calling a wealthy older brother to bail you out aren't presented as options here.

I know I get hung up on words sometimes, but this is supposed to be Christ speaking (and saying "verily, verily" twice), and the words really seem to paint a hopeless picture.

I thought Zerinus might have a point about the releasing of all debts in the year of Jubilee, but the more I look at the words (and think about the "verily's"), the more even that idea seems to go against the text.

Trying to understand it as leaving any room for further revelation is really starting to give me a head ache, and I was hoping someone might have an aspirin I could swallow?

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

In context, it does not appear Christ is referring to the afterlife. A profitable place to start, therefore, might be here.

[inquiringmind]

This is an extreme but if you murder someone, that life is over ~ no take backs. You cannot fix what you have done no matter how much remorse you may have. You cannot pay it better again. Even your own life would not be equal to the life loss. There's just no quick fix. You have to suffer the life of a murderer and that's that. You have to suffer the consequence. If you die and go to prison to suffer for your sin, you cannot pay the jailer or get out on good behavior. There's just no quick fix. You have to do the time. The time, I assume, is determined by your unrepentant sin. This is my understanding anyway. You can't pay your way out of it, you must suffer the fullest extent of the sin (which is a different form of payment, isn't it?). But that is not to say that your time to serve will never end.

I've got to think about this one (thank you.)

[inquiringmind]

In context, it does not appear Christ is referring to the afterlife. A profitable place to start, therefore, might be here.

It would seem that pagan Rome banned the practice of debt bondage 326 years before the birth of Christ, and it wasn't reinstituted until medieval times.

That doesn't tell us anything about the new world, but why do you say that the context here (in 3 Nephi 12:26) doesn't seem to be talking about the afterlife?

(If you're right about that not being the context, it would answer all my questions about this verse, but I don't see how you can say that.)

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind