Not Even One Senine?

[Log]

Let's look at the context (the stuff around the verse in question):

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

These are instructions pertaining to one's conduct in this life, or so it seems to me. Christ is not therefore speaking of The Adversary but a legal adversary and is describing outcomes pertaining to then existing Nephite law, which apparently included debtor's prison.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Log

[Nominee]

I've got to think about this one (thank you.)

yw. It is hard for me to get through that too.

Thinking of bail, a price is set and if you could pay that outrageously large price then you can get out of jail but you have to pay the uttermost (the greatest amount or degree possible).

But you can't pay that price because the price is too high and you're not worth that much so you sit in jail and serve your time. Jesus is the only one who has the worth to pay your bail.

He redeems (does something that compensates for...) your debt. What he does to compensate is to physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally suffer every drop of excruciating pain that sin causes. So without repentance that bail doesn't get paid for you. For we are not saved by grace alone but through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. You must now pay the uttermost. You must pay that bail to get out of being in jail. But can you? No. You are not worth enough as the sinner you are entering into that prison, while ye are in prison. But when you have served your time, and suffered every pain of your own sin and found the meaning to righteousness... your debt will eventually be paid. But not while you are in prison, not until you have finished prison.

"thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

Maybe.

Thanks for pointing out my newest rabbit hole.

[zerinus]

But then, what would Christ's point be here?

Before you get baptized, or confirmed, or endowed, you'd better make sure you don't owe anyone any money--because if you do they might have you thrown in prison, and you'll never be able to earn the money to pay them back there (so you'll die there.)

Is that what He's saying?

What does that have to do with the rest of the context?

But He's not quoted as saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out until I settle the debt for you," He's quoted as saying "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

But being in some way reconciled to your brother (by paying the debt, or having it paid for you) isn't presented as an option after you're thrown into prison.

The picture painted after that seems to be "thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay."

Paying the debt, mortgaging your home, or calling a wealthy older brother to bail you out aren't presented as options here.

I know I get hung up on words sometimes, but this is supposed to be Christ speaking (and saying "verily, verily" twice), and the words really seem to paint a hopeless picture.

I thought Zerinus might have a point about the releasing of all debts in the year of Jubilee, but the more I look at the words (and think about the "verily's"), the more even that idea seems to go against the text.

Trying to understand it as leaving any room for further revelation is really starting to give me a head ache, and I was hoping someone might have an aspirin I could swallow?

As I think I mentioned in another post, I believe it means that you are going to stay there for a very long time, not that you will not get out at all. It is the language of hyperbole. What it means is, try to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, because if you do, getting out will be a lot harder, and take longer than you think. Like the "camel passing through the eye of the needle," it is not meant to be taken literally:

Mark 10:

24 But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that atrust in briches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

This does not mean that rich people will never make it to heaven, but that it will be a lot harder for them to do so, because they have more of the excess baggage to get rid of than a poor man. The same rule of interpretation applies to the other quote.

Edited March 31, 2012 by zerinus

[inquiringmind]

I was told the "eye of the needle" was slang for some kind of arched gateway that was very hard to get camels thru (when the main city gate was closed after dark.)

If that's true, comparing a rich man's entering heaven to a camel going thru the eye of the needle (i.e. this low, arched gate) isn't the extreme hyperbole it seems.

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

I was told the "eye of the needle" was slang for some kind of arched gateway that was very hard to get camels thru (when the main city gate was closed after dark.)

You were told wrong. It is the language of metaphor and hyperbole which is a common feature of expression among the people of Middle East.

[inquiringmind]

You were told wrong. It is the language of metaphor and hyperbole which is a common feature of expression among the people of Middle East.

This would seem to support your statement here (but if you know of any additional evidence that the side gate theory is a myth, I'd be interested in it.)

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

[heartbroke37]

god says eternal judgements are his. eternal is his name. when you are given an eternal hell it is gods judgement. eternal. not forever and ever. just gods punishment i believe

[Nominee]

As I think I mentioned in another post, I believe it means that you are going to stay there for a very long time, not that you will not get out at all. It is the language of hyperbole. What it means is, try to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, because if you do, getting out will be a lot harder, and take longer than you think.

Yep. What Zerinus says. I agree with this.

[Nominee]

This is interesting... It follows along with what Log was saying, I think. A girlfriend of mine, when I asked about it, gave this summation:

• 
  Senine is a coin, a measure of gold and silver (like our pennys, dimes) anyways an amount of $ Jesus was preaching about the law of moses & the rules now that he had come. He said if you need to ask forgiveness from someone , it will be good for your heart.... but it doesn't mean you have to be best buds or hang out in other words leave and continue on yer path with him. hang out with them and not the followers of Christ , the police may come for them and arrest you too. You can ask forgiveness of someone but don't follow them . But continue to follow the Jesus. If you stick around you may end up in the slammer too. You will have no way to work while in jail to pay your bond. And he said you know they will put the price of your bail really high.
  
• 
  Soooo that is what I think it means,,,just a warning ,,,Birds of a feather flock together,,,,but U are on a new path now , so keep your eyes on the goal & stay right on the Godly road .
  

edit: To remove her Facebook name and picture and to capitalize Christ.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Nominee

[TAO]

But then, what would Christ's point be here?

Before you get baptized, or confirmed, or endowed, you'd better make sure you don't owe anyone any money--because if you do they might have you thrown in prison, and you'll never be able to earn the money to pay them back there (so you'll die there.)

Is that what He's saying?

What does that have to do with the rest of the context?

I think his point would be to stay out of debt. Because being in debt is bad. Kind of like how we have the Word of Wisdom to help us today... it's not only advice relating to the spiritual realm, but also to the physical one, the worldly realm we are living in right now.

I don't think he's being that strictly explicit - I don't think he's saying that you absolutely have to get rid of all your debts before those actions. What I think he is saying is to try and avoid debt and get it payed off as quickly as possible. And I'm not sure if it relates to the reconciliation with your brother thing or not =p. You should ask God about that one.

On the other hand, if it is a spiritual analogy, I think Erayr has a point: We cannot escape debt without Christ, even after suffering our sins. Otherwise, those in prison before the Resurrection would have already risen. But they could not. No matter what, only Christ will be able to pay the price of debt that is death. Only Christ can pay that for us, and so, in that sense, we could not pay it back.

I'm not sure which interpretation is right, but yeah... ask God about it... he will let you know eventually, if it's his will =).

[Cobalt-70]

It would seem that pagan Rome banned the practice of debt bondage 326 years before the birth of Christ, and it wasn't reinstituted until medieval times.

Debt bondage is different than a debtor's prison. For the first, if you don't pay, you become the slave to your creditor. Jesus was referring to the second scenario, where if you don't pay, you go to prison.

[inquiringmind]

You were told wrong. It is the language of metaphor and hyperbole which is a common feature of expression among the people of Middle East.

Thank you.

I was just reading this, and thinking of what you said here.

Hyperbole: A Common Biblical Figure of Speech

by Kyle Butt, M.A.

The Bible is by far the most popular book ever printed. As such, it is also the most read. Those who read the Bible are reading the inspired message of God (see Butt, 2007). Yet, even though the Bible is God’s inspired message, it contains figures of speech that commonly occur in secular writings. E.W. Bullinger wrote more than a thousand pages of material describing these figures of speech in his excellent volume Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (1968). In order to properly understand the Bible, a basic knowledge of commonly used figures of speech is important. Furthermore, such knowledge is often helpful in refuting erroneous claims, made by skeptics, that the Bible contains errors or discrepancies.

A common figure of speech used in the Bible is that of hyperbole. Bullinger defines hyperbole as: “when more is said than is literally meant” (1968, p. 423). He also calls hyperbole “exaggeration.” We who use the English language are quite familiar with the use of hyperbole, even though we may not be as familiar with the term itself. When a teenager explains to her parent that “everybody” is going to be at the party, does she mean that literally the world’s population of 6.6 billion people will be there? Of course she does not. She is intentionally exaggerating to make a point. When a teacher explains to his class that “everybody” knows who the first president of the United States was, does the teacher believe all toddlers can correctly answer the question? No. Once again, the teacher is simply using a well-understood figure of speech to convey a point.

In a similar way, the Bible uses hyperbole on numerous occasions. Take John 4:39 as an example. In this passage, a Samaritan woman spoke of Jesus and said: “He told me all that I ever did” (emp. added). Had Jesus really told that woman everything that she had ever done in her life? No, she was using hyperbole to make her point.

To illustrate further, consider Mark 1:4-5: “John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins” (emp. added). Taken literally, these verses would mean that John baptized every single person (man, woman, and child) in all of Judea and Jerusalem. But these verses are not to be taken literally. They are utilizing hyperbole, in which intentional “exaggeration” is employed to explain that John’s baptism was extremely popular.

The importance of understanding hyperbole can be seen when comparing another passage to Mark 1:4-5. In Luke 7:24-35, Jesus extolled the righteousness of John the Baptizer. Some of His listeners appreciated Jesus’ comments about John and some did not. Verses 29 and 30 explain: “And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.” Are we to conclude that the Pharisees and lawyers did not dwell in Judea and Jerusalem and that is why they had not been baptized—as Mark 1:4-5 would imply if taken literally? That would certainly be a stretch. The best answer in this case is to show that Mark’s use of hyperbole would allow some, such as the Pharisees and lawyers, to have rejected John and not to have received his baptism.

Another example of hyperbole is found in John 3:26. In that context, John’s disciples were telling John about the increasing popularity of Jesus’ ministry. They said to him: “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!” (emp. added). Was it true that literally “all” the people in the world were coming to Jesus? No, it was simply the case that John’s disciples were intentionally exaggerating, using hyperbole, to describe Jesus’ spreading fame. [NOTE: For more examples see Bullinger, 1968, pp. 423-428.]

Honest-hearted Bible readers can benefit greatly from knowing when and how the Bible writers used hyperbole. Many of the challenges of skeptics can also be answered based on such information. After all, everybody knows that great literature always uses figures of speech such as hyperbole to convey its message.

http://www.apologeti...11&article=2407

I guess it's probably good to keep this in mind when reading the Book of Mormon too?

Edited April 11, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Let's look at the context (the stuff around the verse in question):

21 Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, and it is also written before you, that thou shalt not kill, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment of God;

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee—

24 Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

These are instructions pertaining to one's conduct in this life, or so it seems to me. Christ is not therefore speaking of The Adversary but a legal adversary and is describing outcomes pertaining to then existing Nephite law, which apparently included debtor's prison.

I was just reading an interesting commentary on the BOM (Step by Step Through The Book Of Mormon, by Alan C. Miner), and it says "a senine was particularly important because it was the amount paid to each Nephite judge for a days service at law (Alma 11:5). Evidently, the loosing party at a law suit was liable to pay the judges one senine each, a burden that would give potential litigants all the more reason to 'agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him" (2 Nephi 12:25.)

Edited April 12, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

The way out is in and through Jesus Christ.

Then why did Joseph say that murderers “cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 189)?

"Last farthing" is a direct reference to the parallel passage in Matt. 5:26.

As I think I mentioned in another post, I believe it means that you are going to stay there for a very long time, not that you will not get out at all. It is the language of hyperbole. What it means is, try to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, because if you do, getting out will be a lot harder, and take longer than you think.

Another thought is that coming "out thence" might imply coming out before the prison itself is shut down (and in Mormon Theology, doesn't spirit prison come to an end when all are resurrected?)

Edited April 14, 2012 by inquiringmind

[ERayR]

Then why did Joseph say that murderers “cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 189)?

Even when the last farthing is paid by the sinner he/she still falls way short of enough to pay the debt. When all is done and the last farthing is paid one will recognize it is not enough and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, the only one who can truly clear the debt. It is then,at that point, that our sins are forgiven and we are made clean.

[Calm]

Even when the last farthing is paid by the sinner he/she still falls way short of enough to pay the debt. When all is done and the last farthing is paid one will recognize it is not enough and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, the only one who can truly clear the debt. It is then,at that point, that our sins are forgiven and we are made clean.

Sin (and thankfully righteousness as well) has a rippling effect, it reaches out and affects those closest to the sinner and then their behaviour changes, affecting those further away from the sinner and continues on and on through all distances and time. There is no way to "quantify" the effect of a sin because of this ripple effect so it is impossible to remove the sin's effect even after "paying the last farthing" (which imo means the immediate effect/consequence of a sin that would in other cases be able to be restored to the victim such), as ERR says. Think of it this way...there is the immediate effect of loss of money when stolen that by the law of Moses is dealt with by returning fourfold, which recognizes that it is not only the loss that causes suffering but what one can not now achieve due to the loss of money that causes suffering....perhaps a child gets sick because a parent can't buy food due to having been mugged on the way home with his paycheck. The fourfold allows for restitution of the immediate amount as well as making up for what harm the loss may have had to a certain extent. The Law of the Atonement is superior to the Law of Moses because it goes beyond the fourfold restitution and restores every change due to sin to its innocent state. So the Law of Moses is partially effective, while the Law of the Atonement is fully effective for sins less than murder.

However in the case of a murder, there is not only no way to restore the life of the victim...thus the Law of Moses is not even partially effective in the case of murder even if the murderer gives his own life, but even if one paid the last farthing by giving one's life in service to those who suffered the loss of the victim four times over, it still could not remove all the effects of the victim's death....thus the murderer still needs to be forgiven even after "payment", but they must make the effort to restore as much as possible first to open their hearts and souls to being forgiven, imo. Only by doing all they can and still failing to restore what they took can they reach a place where they understand exactly what they have done and thus can finally ask for forgiveness for what they have done and by truly asking, then receive it.

[inquiringmind]

Even when the last farthing is paid by the sinner he/she still falls way short of enough to pay the debt...

But if 3 Nephi 12:26 is talking about spirit prison, Jesus seems to be saying that the sinner can't pay any fraction of the debt while there (and to say that after saying they can't get out until they've paid the whole debt.)

Take David.

If he's in spirit prison to pay off some debt, he can't get out until he's paid the uttermost senine (or farthing), and he can't pay even one senine while he's there, how could he ever get out?

When all is done and the last farthing is paid one will recognize it is not enough and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, the only one who can truly clear the debt. It is then,at that point, that our sins are forgiven and we are made clean.

But hasn't David already accepted the atonement?

Again, if he's in spirit prison to personally pay some part of his debt, if he can't get out (can't benefit from the atonement) until the part of the debt he's there to pay for is entirely paid, and he can't really pay any part of the debt while he's in prison, how does he ever get out (to benefit from the atonement)?

This isn't really a problem in Matt. 5:26 (because it doesn't say anything about not being able to pay off the debt in prison). but I see only four ways to interpret 3 Nephi 12:26.

Either

1.) It's teaching the traditional 19th century Protestant concept of hell

2.) It's not talking about the afterlife at all

3 ) It's some kind of hyperbole

4.) Getting "out thence" means getting out of spirit prison before everyone does (i.e. before the last Judgement, at the end of the millennium.)

I've read all the comments here, and I'm still trying to figure out the best way of interpreting this passage.

Edited April 14, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Robert F. Smith]

This would seem to support your statement here (but if you know of any additional evidence that the side gate theory is a myth, I'd be interested in it.)

http://www.biblicalh...camelneedle.htm

Zerinus is likely correct. The rabbis had a similar saying to indicate impossibility: "an elephant passing through a needle's eye" (Talmud Babli Berakot 55b, Baba Mezia 38b). Another example would be to "strain a gnat and swallow a camel" (Matt 23:24).

The real question is whether, once in prison, anyone can pay that final senine or farthing in order to satisfy the debt. Since we are not speaking about the Marshalsea from a Charles ****ens story, only Jesus can do that, and if we are speaking metaphorically about spirit prison where repentance is not possible for the debtor, the only way Jesus' atonement can be effectuated is through the good offices of someone who performs the necessary ordinances by proxy in this world, on this side of the veil. If the debtor accepts those ordinances on his behalf, then and only then can the the atonement of Christ become applicable. Assignment to whichever kingdom is then another matter to be considered . . .

Edited April 14, 2012 by Robert F. Smith