Letter Regarding Name Submissions: Was It Read In Sacrament Today?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If the intent was to help the church why not send a nice note pointing out the problem and potential solutions to the Family History web site?

...but for a mess of potage and 15 minutes of fame...

Because that was not his intent. He wanted to show all of his apostate friends how to mess with the church.

Pathetic!

[divinenature]

If the intent was to help the church why not send a nice note pointing out the problem and potential solutions to the Family History web site?

...but for a mess of potage and 15 minutes of fame...

The church is aware of how the program works. They have invested millions into FamilySearch.

[KevinG]

Because that was not his intent. He wanted to show all of his apostate friends how to mess with the church.

Pathetic!

The church is aware of how the program works. They have invested millions into FamilySearch.

I agree. Then the issue has more to do with personal honesty than it does with software quality control. I think our self-appinted gray hat is missing that one critical concept.

The fact that he is the one who started this thread "did anyone hear the letter today, did ya, huh ,did ya?!" is another revealing window into his intent.

If you are going to get outed for apostacy why not go out with a public bang?

Edited March 5, 2012 by DaddyG

[Jeff K.]

Well, I guess we have an excellent example as to why some of us consider anti Mormons to be dishonest, and with little integrity. It was proven in front of our eyes with the brazen acts of a person who decided his personal honesty was worth less than attacks upon the church. This thread should always be linked when some ask why we question the truthfulness of anti Mormons.

[divinenature]

I applaud LDSToronto for being completely upfront and honest about everything he did in exposing the truth about how easy it is for a member to submit any name they want for temple work. The fact that he blogged the entire ordeal and then deleted all traces of the names from the system show how much integrity this man has.

If the only safeguard the church has in place is the hope that all their members will be honest and know all the guidelines of temple submission than they should have just said that these members violated the honor code that the system is run on. Instead they made it sound like there was a complicated system to get around.

There isn't.

[KevinG]

I applaud LDSToronto for being completely upfront and honest about everything he did in exposing the truth about how easy it is for a member to submit any name they want for temple work.

You must have missed last week when he did it in secret and bragged about it on this forum. I have s sneaking suspicion he didn't go public until after he was already outed for his previous pranks. I for one sent a report to the LDS church website about this forum and someone claiming to abuse the Family History system. I suspect I wasn't the only one.

This whole twisted hacker ethic is a bad parody of "helping" someone. If you have information that can help someone you go to them with it, you don't seek to embarass them publicly.

The church never claimed to have a complicate system that someone needs to get around. In fact if it were more complicated it would start to be an impedement to the millions who use the system for genuine research and temple work every year. That would be doing favors to no one but the glory seeking hackers and critics.

Edited March 5, 2012 by DaddyG

[zerinus]

I do believe the church should do something to respect the families of Holocaust victims and survivors. I do not support the notion that the members should be threatened with disciplinary action if they violate policy.

The Church has the right to, and does discipline Church members for violating other policy, so why not this policy? If I lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery I expect to be disciplined; so why not for knowingly and deceitfully entering names against Church policy?

I didn't do this to annoy people. I understand people may be annoyed, but that was not my motive. My motive was to show that "a great deal of deception and manipulation" is not required to bypass the Church's safeguards, . . .

From the Church's point of view, any amount of deception is great deception. You have already demonstrated that it would not be possible to violate the policy without deception; and deception is a disciplinable offence in the Church.

. . . and thus, the solution that the church has implemented, namely threatening it's members, is not the right solution.

I disagree, see above. The Church has not completely banned name submission and temple work for Holocaust victims. If you are related to the individual, you may submit the names and do the work. The system has to be flexible enough to permit this. I agree with a lot of the things that TAO has said. No matter how tight you make the system, it will still not prevent someone determined to circumvent it; and you will only be making matters unnecessarily hard for those who want to make legitimate use of the system. Since the system can only be operated by Church members, the Church has the right to expect responsible behavior from them, or face disciplinary action for violating Church policy. The Church must rely on the good will and good behavior of its members to carry out its salvific act in all areas, for the living as well as for the dead. Disciplining the tiny number of Church members who may violate the rules is a preferred option to making the system cumbersome and difficult to use for the vast majority of members who want to make responsible use of the system.

[divinenature]

You must have missed last week when he did it in secret and bragged about it on this forum. I have s sneaking suspicion he didn't go public until after he was already outed for his previous pranks. I for one sent a report to the LDS church website about this forum and someone claiming to abuse the Family History system. I suspect I wasn't the only one.

This whole twisted hacker ethic is a bad parody of "helping" someone. If you have information that can help someone you go to them with it, you don't seek to embarass them publicly.

The church never claimed to have a complicate system that someone needs to get around. In fact if it were more complicated it would start to be an impedement to the millions who use the system for genuine research and temple work every year. That would be doing favors to no one but the glory seeking hackers and critics.

How do you feel about the fact that the church has been working on making it more difficult for incorrect submissions to be made to the FS website and will be rolling them out soon? This is long before the most recent Holocaust articles came out and I don't think any of the changes are geared towards that particular problem.

The church realizes that lots of the members using the system are submitting names that they should not be submitting.

[Scott Lloyd]

I asked a counselor in my bishopric about it. He said the bishopric had not yet received the letter. But he was well aware of it, having read the letter and the coverage in the Church News the day before.

I believe it would be a violation of protocol to read a letter in sacrament meeting that had not been received through formal priesthood channels, even though there has been coverage in the news media.

[KevinG]

How do you feel about the fact that the church has been working on making it more difficult for incorrect submissions to be made to the FS website and will be rolling them out soon? This is long before the most recent Holocaust articles came out and I don't think any of the changes are geared towards that particular problem.

The church realizes that lots of the members using the system are submitting names that they should not be submitting.

Having been a user of Family Search, IGI and Temple Ready since the days of paper submissions I am thrilled at efforts to remove duplicate submissions (a bane of mine for years), incorrect submissions and false submissions. I also trust them to do it in good order using reports from honest users. This is a world of difference from someone intentionally hacking the system in order to embarass the church.

This is an honor based system not a financial institution. It should be policed by the individual using it first, IT professionals second and not have to depend on the games of hackers to force changes that if people were honest would not have to be made.

Errors can be made by members - I myself have made a few, and when I realized they were errors I submitted updated records with corrections. Honor.

I argue against the notion that lots of members are submitting names that should not be submitted. The evidence of the last few weeks shows many of the problems are coming from non-members, apostates and soon to be apostates intent on proving something or embarassing the church.

Edited March 5, 2012 by DaddyG

[sjdawg]

Well, I guess we have an excellent example as to why some of us consider anti Mormons to be dishonest, and with little integrity. It was proven in front of our eyes with the brazen acts of a person who decided his personal honesty was worth less than attacks upon the church. This thread should always be linked when some ask why we question the truthfulness of anti Mormons.

I'm pretty sure LDStoronto indicated he deleted the names from the system once he entered them. It was a simple test of the submission system and its safeguards. I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

[BCSpace]

I asked a counselor in my bishopric about it. He said the bishopric had not yet received the letter. But he was well aware of it, having read the letter and the coverage in the Church News the day before.

I believe it would be a violation of protocol to read a letter in sacrament meeting that had not been received through formal priesthood channels, even though there has been coverage in the news media.

I was waiting for the reported directive last week. Our 12 Stake region has not yet received it apparently. If it had, we would have gotten an email with attachment and/or a letter. Maybe this week.

Edited March 5, 2012 by BCSpace

[LDSToronto]

It wasn't boasting because someone asked for it? But they only asked for it because you made a statement that you had it. Kind of sounded like boasting.

Bob was the first to mention it in this post: "Aren't you one of the persons who submitted Holocaust victims' names to the Church, recently, and then posted a boast about it? I'm fascinated to know whether you oppose the Church's ban on such submissions? And how you circumvented the software bar?"

H.

[LDSToronto]

You must have missed last week when he did it in secret and bragged about it on this forum. I have s sneaking suspicion he didn't go public until after he was already outed for his previous pranks. I for one sent a report to the LDS church website about this forum and someone claiming to abuse the Family History system. I suspect I wasn't the only one.

I went public because Scott Lloyd and others suspected I was not truthful in my claims. Thanks for reporting my experiment to the church. You can also report my blog to them as well if you'd like. If anything comes of this, I will record it and report.

H.

[divinenature]

Having been a user of Family Search, IGI and Temple Ready since the days of paper submissions I am thrilled at efforts to remove duplicate submissions (a bane of mine for years), incorrect submissions and false submissions. I also trust them to do it in good order using reports from honest users. This is a world of difference from someone intentionally hacking the system in order to embarass the church.

This is an honor based system not a financial institution. It should be policed by the individual using it first, IT professionals second and not have to depend on the games of hackers to force changes that if people were honest would not have to be made.

Errors can be made by members - I myself have made a few, and when I realized they were errors I submitted updated records with corrections. Honor.

I argue against the notion that lots of members are submitting names that should not be submitted. The evidence of the last few weeks shows many of the problems are coming from non-members, apostates and soon to be apostates intent on proving something or embarassing the church.

I'm not sure it was wise for the church to promise not to allow Holocaust victims to have ordinances done if they cannot keep that promise.

You can argue against the notion of "lots of members" submitting names that should not be all you want, but you have yet to show that anyone other than members are doing it. All the people I know of and all the stories I've been told of in the FHC are of things members have done and are doing. I've never ran across one instance where any one other than a believing member has submitted names to the temple that don't conform to the guidelines.

The temple ready system is only available to people with LDS membership numbers.

I want to add that I believe the changes I have been told about have actually been rolled out already. One was that the 95 year rule would be changed to 110 years. It appears that the screen where you have to click that you have permission is new, too. I have never had it pop up for me before.

There was supposed to be something in the works to get rid of non-names names, such as names with characters in the field other than alphabetical. I am unaware of anything being implemented for that, yet.

[LDSToronto]

The Church has the right to, and does discipline Church members for violating other policy, so why not this policy? If I lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery I expect to be disciplined; so why not for knowingly and deceitfully entering names against Church policy?

Is there a difference between violating policy and committing a sin?

From the Church's point of view, any amount of deception is great deception. You have already demonstrated that it would not be possible to violate the policy without deception; and deception is a disciplinable offence in the Church.

I have a copy of Handbook 1: Stake Presidents and Bishops and I just looked up Church Discipline. Deception is not a disciplinable offence. You might have a weak case for apostasy, in my case, but not deception.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Having been a user of Family Search, IGI and Temple Ready since the days of paper submissions I am thrilled at efforts to remove duplicate submissions (a bane of mine for years), incorrect submissions and false submissions. I also trust them to do it in good order using reports from honest users. This is a world of difference from someone intentionally hacking the system in order to embarass the church.

This is an honor based system not a financial institution. It should be policed by the individual using it first, IT professionals second and not have to depend on the games of hackers to force changes that if people were honest would not have to be made.

Errors can be made by members - I myself have made a few, and when I realized they were errors I submitted updated records with corrections. Honor.

I argue against the notion that lots of members are submitting names that should not be submitted. The evidence of the last few weeks shows many of the problems are coming from non-members, apostates and soon to be apostates intent on proving something or embarassing the church.

Please search for "Jesus of Nazareth" on familysearch.org. Tell me, which honest member feels they are a descendent of Jesus? For that matter, why are there multiple submissions for him? Under different names and from different people?

H.

[KevinG]

I went public because Scott Lloyd and others suspected I was not truthful in my claims. Thanks for reporting my experiment to the church. You can also report my blog to them as well if you'd like. If anything comes of this, I will record it and report.

H.

You are welcome. You can think of it as an innocent test of the Church discipline system if it comes to that.

Than again you have been boasting for years that you are a full time critic with a temple recommend so this whole exercise may be no more than just bull and boasting.

Edited March 6, 2012 by KevinG

[KevinG]

You can argue against the notion of "lots of members" submitting names that should not be all you want, but you have yet to show that anyone other than members are doing it.

No Toronto (who appears to be a member in name only) has proven that himself. Keep trying to convince yourself that the continued submission of Holocaust victims is being done by faithful Latter-day Saints who follow the rules.

[KevinG]

Please search for "Jesus of Nazareth" on familysearch.org. Tell me, which honest member feels they are a descendent of Jesus? For that matter, why are there multiple submissions for him? Under different names and from different people?

H.

Up until recently I would have chalked it up to overzealous and imaginative Saints. Now I think there is a distinct posibility that there are some rats in the wallboards and you are exibit A.

[LDSToronto]

You are welcome. You can think of it as an innocent test of the Church discipline system if it comes to that.

Care to share your results?

Than again you have been boasting for years that you are a full time critic with a temple recommend so this whole exercise may be no more than just bull and boasting.

CFR where I've boasted about being a full-time critic with a temple recommend.

H.

[KevinG]

Care to share your results?

CFR where I've boasted about being a full-time critic with a temple recommend.

H.

I suspect you will know the results far before I will. I don't need to know the results- just that someone knows the system is being gamed for the amusement of a self-appointed hacker.

Excuse me: "A full-time critic who boasted of the ability to attend the Temple". I didn't know you were a grammarian and a lawyer as well as an amateur hacker.

Edited March 6, 2012 by KevinG

[LDSToronto]

I suspect you will know the results far before I will.

I will let you know then.

Excuse me: "A full-time critic who boasted of the ability to attend the Temple". I didn't know you were a grammarian and a lawyer as well as an amateur hacker.

No, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I a grammarian. I am a software professional. And, still waiting on the CFR - where did I claim I was a full-time critic WHILE boasting of the ability to attend the temple?

H.

Edited March 6, 2012 by LDSToronto

[KevinG]

I will let you know then.

No, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I a grammarian. I am a software professional. And, still waiting on the CFR - where did I claim I was a full-time critic WHILE claiming to have the ability to attend the temple?

H.

Harvey meet Toronto...

Sure, but the reality is, had I done this work at say, 8AM on Tuesday, I could have drive to the temple after work and done the work, provided I had a baptismal team.

H.

[zerinus]

Is there a difference between violating policy and committing a sin?

The Church has a policy against sinning; so if you are sinning, you are obviously breaking Church policy. Now there may be policies which may be broken without sinning; but I can't think of one at the moment. Perhaps somebody else can think of a Church policy which one can break without sinning.

I have a copy of Handbook 1: Stake Presidents and Bishops and I just looked up Church Discipline. Deception is not a disciplinable offence.

I think you are reading it wrong. Every sin has an element of dishonesty within it. I can't think of one that doesn't.

You might have a weak case for apostasy, in my case, but not deception.

I wasn't talking about you. I was referring to Church members who knowingly violate Church policy in this regard--the ones who were being addressed in the above mentioned directive from the First Presidency.