Letter Regarding Name Submissions: Was It Read In Sacrament Today?

[LDSToronto]

but he hasn't shown that the work will be done at the temple automatically since he didn't take the cards to the temple. It is possible that it would be, he just hasn't demonstrated that.

Part of the system's effectiveness as agreed to in the Church's agreement with Jewish leaders would include if the ordinances are left in place or removed.

In other words, safeguards could exist at different levels and until one works through one level, one won't know about the safeguards in place in the next level.

If one claims that one has identified all the safeguards in place but it really is only the safeguards at the submission level, don't you think that is an incomplete and inaccurate report?

It is quite possible that other safeguards are based on honesty and self-reporting as well, I am not making any claim about the quality or quantity of safeguards for any of the next steps of the work being done. I am merely pointing out that all he has 'exposed' is level one safeguards.

There are a lot of possibilities, camoriah. What are the probabilities?

H.

[cdowis]

Yes, you have proven that the church trusts it members to follow the rules and has not spent tens of millions of dollars to prevent such individuals as yourself to submit bogus/illegal names.

You have indeed made your point.

[LDSToronto]

Admittedly, I don't know my way around New FamilySearch very well yet, but from the times I've been on there, and from what I can tell, I cannot easily submit someone's name for temple work who is not displayed on my personal pedigree. To do so, I would have to take pains to circumvent the system (and thereby defraud the Church) somehow. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

Yes, you are incorrect in this assumption. Submitting a name that is not related to yours only requires that you are honest. There are no technical obstacles or safeguards in place.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Does merely adding information enable you to submit the name of a non-relative for temple work?

Yes.

[Bob Crockett]

The only people that can submit names for LDS temple ordinances are members of the church. The overwhelming consensus is that members are good, honest folk and the Church can rely on them to do the right thing. Most of you agree that this is good enough security. So I wonder why the hyperbole? Why claim that I have shown millions of people how to flood the system with names? The two claims seem to be at odds.

H.

I guess I am not all that troubled except by your silliness. Why bother? You hold to this notion that the church verify each and claim of descendancy but that is more silliness. I could easily claim to be a descendant of Thomas Jefferson will some fake names and there would be no practical challenge. You point to examples of Hitler, but even then who can dispute a claim that you are a son of Hitler? Is the church required to be an expert in German political history to know that he had no children, so his bios claim?

But, famous people are different than the common Irene Eichman, born in Krakov in 1934, died in Brooklyn. Is she a Jew? Certainly appears to be Jewish, but Adolph Eichman was a notorious Nazi war criminal. You claim to be her son. How is one to dispute that?

You claim to be the illegitimate son of Bernard Baruch, a noted Jewish American. How is one to dispute that? His family may submit a complaint and you may be challenged, but until then how is the church to know Baruch had no illegitimate sons?

[divinenature]

As Scott Lloyd points out, this requirement has applied to all patrons and all ehtnicities since the 1990s. I cannot submit a Scot's name if he is not my ancestor.

Moreover keep in mind there is no way to know is most cases whether a person was or was not a living Jew, unless perhaps they were buried in a Jewish cemetery and even then that info is not submitted. For many years the Germans rewuired that Jews be buried in Lutheran cemetaries

Just because a name appears Jewish is no test at all. That is the father's name and since the middle ages almost all Jewish communities look to the religion of the mother as a determinative factor.

The onus for complying with the rule is on the patrons. They submit the names, except for what remains of the extraction program. As to that, no Jewish burial records are used. The church responds to complaints and removes names when notified.

It appears that the church made an agreement it couldn't keep, then.

In some cases these names are being taken from Jewish records. If someone is so illiterate that they cannot tell that a Jewish religious record contains the names of Jews they probably will not comprehend the submission guidelines, either.

The fact is that there are members of the church submitting the names of non-relatives, and that includes Jews. Nothing is stopping them.

The church responds to complaints by hiding the ordinance information. The names are not removed from FamilySearch. Anne Frank is still in there. She has over a dozen members who have contributed to her data.

Does merely adding information enable you to submit the name of a non-relative for temple work?

LDSToronto showed us that you can submit a non-relative for temple work.

[Jeff K.]

LDS Toronto showed us he can lie, he also showed us he doesn't care about any of the holocaust victims, they are just tools for him to use in his war against the church. He certainly has showed us those things. Everything else is based on believing he is not lying now. How can we possibly know if he is telling us the truth, whether it is regret or a claim that he is trying to do the right thing.

If LDS Tronto embezzles money, do we celebrate the fact that he has shown us a weakness in the system or do we prosecute him for breaking an agreement/social contract?

[LDSToronto]

LDS Toronto showed us he can lie, he also showed us he doesn't care about any of the holocaust victims, they are just tools for him to use in his war against the church. He certainly has showed us those things.

Don't forget, I also showed I don't care about computers, the internet, blogs, discussion boards, web browsers, words, the alphabet, hyperlinks.....

Everything else is based on believing he is not lying now.

Can you explain? What am I lying about? If anything, I'm been completely transparent and forthright with what I did.

How can we possibly know if he is telling us the truth, whether it is regret or a claim that he is trying to do the right thing.

Telling the truth about? What do I regret? I am really confused, Jeff.

If LDS Tronto embezzles money, do we celebrate the fact that he has shown us a weakness in the system or do we prosecute him for breaking an agreement/social contract?

If I embezzle money, I will go to jail. I didn't embezzle money. I didn't even commit a crime.

H.

[Gohan]

This thread hasn't been closed yet? Dang...

I don't like what LDS Toronto did, but he did it, it's over. Yes, he exercised a degree of deception in submitting that name, but it was withdrawn and no work was done.

Right now I'm more concerned about the bigger situation that's going on and its effects, which worry and irritate me more. I talked to my grandmother today about some family names that she wanted me to do and she's afraid to submit them because of the whole hubbub going on right now, despite the fact that we're quite evidently directly related to them. That for me is a bigger deal than what Toronto did.

Now, on the off-chance that this post was coherent, can we focus on something else besides continually trying to insult the guy? After the sixth page it was kind of sad and pathetic, we're at what now? 13?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Gohan

[sjdawg]

If LDS Tronto embezzles money, do we celebrate the fact that he has shown us a weakness in the system or do we prosecute him for breaking an agreement/social contract?

That depends. Does he give the money back immediately after taking it and tell us about the system flaw that allowed the theft to take place?

[cdowis]

It appears that the church made an agreement it couldn't keep, then.

It shows that the church is making a reasonable effort to enforce the agreement, including the possibility of excommunication of those who are found in violation of the agreement. When a violation is discovered, it is relatively easy to identify the submitter, and they have been fore-warned of the consequences.

In some cases these names are being taken from Jewish records. If someone is so illiterate that they cannot tell that a Jewish religious record contains the names of Jews they probably will not comprehend the submission guidelines, either.

The fact is that there are members of the church submitting the names of non-relatives, and that includes Jews. Nothing is stopping them.

Are you suggesting capital punishment? Do you understand the concept of "reasonable measures"?

The church responds to complaints by hiding the ordinance information. The names are not removed from FamilySearch. Anne Frank is still in there. She has over a dozen members who have contributed to her data.

You are confused. The issue is not that her name is in new.familysearch.org but that her name was submitted for and ordinances are being done for her by those who are not authorized to do so. Will you deny her RELATIVES who are members of the church from doing those ordinances. Besides capital punishment for violators, you would also refuse to have the work done for her by her legitimate relatives?

The problem is not the existence of her name and relationships on a web site, which are public records and found elsewhere, but her submission for ordinances.

LDSToronto showed us that you can submit a non-relative for temple work.

Yes, he has indeed proven that you can violate your agreements and boast about it to the world.

"Common sense is not very common."

Edited March 7, 2012 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Does he give the money back immediately after taking it and tell us about the system flaw that allowed the theft to take place?

He demonstrated that the church trusts it members to keep their promise, to the point that they do not spend millions and millions of dollars to prevent pathetic souls like himself from violating their word. But there are consequences, and they have been warned.

People like yourself say, "Well, it depends...."

[LDSToronto]

He demonstrated that the church trusts it members to keep their promise, to the point that they do not spend millions and millions of dollars to prevent pathetic souls like himself from violating their word. But there are consequences, and they have been warned.

People like yourself say, "Well, it depends...."

I have a serious question: What is more important to you, money or your ancestors?

Anyone can answer.

H.

[Jeff K.]

I have a serious question. Why does LDS Toronto seek to victimize holocaust survivors by playing with their dead families and relatives. Given he feels no remorse for doing so, why does he insist the church show the remorse he is too callous to feel?

[divinenature]

It shows that the church is making a reasonable effort to enforce the agreement, including the possibility of excommunication of those who are found in violation of the agreement. When a violation is discovered, it is relatively easy to identify the submitter, and they have been fore-warned of the consequences.

Okay, after 15 years the church is *now* stepping up the consequences of being discovered to have submitted Jewish names. Time will tell how well this works.

Are you suggesting capital punishment? Do you understand the concept of "reasonable measures"?

Are you saying that the only two choices are a box to check and capital punishment? I think that we explored lots of other reasonable options earlier in this thread.

You are confused. The issue is not that her name is in new.familysearch.org but that her name was submitted for and ordinances are being done for her by those who are not authorized to do so. Will you deny her RELATIVES who are members of the church from doing those ordinances. Besides capital punishment for violators, you would also refuse to have the work done for her by her legitimate relatives?

The problem is not the existence of her name and relationships on a web site, which are public records and found elsewhere, but her submission for ordinances.

Anne Frank does not have any descendants. There is no one who is authorized to submit her name. Yes, the problem very much is her submission for temple ordinances (over and over and over again).

She in not the only Jewish person in there. There are Rabbi's who have been submitted who left no issue. This means they were submitted by non-descendants, in fact they were submitted by non-relatives.

[sjdawg]

He demonstrated that the church trusts it members to keep their promise, to the point that they do not spend millions and millions of dollars to prevent pathetic souls like himself from violating their word. But there are consequences, and they have been warned.

People like yourself say, "Well, it depends...."

Yes people like me do say that. If LDStoronto had left the names in the system I might actually belief he had done something wrong.

[LDSToronto]

I have a serious question. Why does LDS Toronto seek to victimize holocaust survivors by playing with their dead families and relatives. Given he feels no remorse for doing so, why does he insist the church show the remorse he is too callous to feel?

I'm not victimizing Holocaust survivors.

H.

[sjdawg]

I have a serious question. Why does LDS Toronto seek to victimize holocaust survivors by playing with their dead families and relatives. Given he feels no remorse for doing so, why does he insist the church show the remorse he is too callous to feel?

How was anyone victimized by what LDS Toronto did? What pain was caused? Who is the victim? What was the harm? No one's information is in the sytem. No one was baptized.

[LDSToronto]

Once again, I ask - what is more valuable to you: your money or your ancestors?

[Jeff K.]

I'm not victimizing Holocaust survivors.

H.

Another deception by Toronto

What I think you are actually trying to say is that it was easy. I really don't know how you measure it as requiring very little dishonesty whe you were flagrantly lying.

This might not come as a shock to you, but I have family that was butchered in the Holocaust. Your behaviour, a cynical use of Holocaust victims and survivors in order to do little more than stir the pot, is disgusting. No other word for it.

As someone said, "It’s easy to see without looking too far

That not much is really sacred."

The irony of it all is that I actually agree that better safeguards need to be in place.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Jeff K.]

Once again, I ask - what is more valuable to you: your money or your ancestors?

That is a false canard. But then, for you being false is standard.

[LDSToronto]

Jeff, I was not involved in the Holocaust and had nothing to do with bringing suffering to Volgodan's ancestors. I expressed my regret for the suffering that they encountered.

I am unsure why you would use Volgadon's Jewish ancestors tragedy as evidence that I am victimizing Holocaust survivors. Would you please explain your rationale?

H.

[LDSToronto]

That is a false canard. But then, for you being false is standard.

How is this a 'false canard'? What do you value more, money or ancestors?

[LDSToronto]

I can understand how some of you find what I did distasteful. You are entitled to your opinion. But before you say that I am disrespectful of Holocaust victimes, please look at familysearch and tell me how many times you find names of famous Nazis alongside your own ancestors.

Do you feel the Church is insensitive because of this? I wager the answer is no - somehow you will rationalize the Church's behaviour while vilifying my own. Make no mistake, this doesn't bother me; it intrigues me. It's an interesting peek into each of your worldviews and I thank you for welcoming me into your way of thinking.

H.

[Jeff K.]

Opinion and fact coincide, you are disgusting. The act was disgraceful, and victimized both holocaust survivors, and those who died. All so that you could boost your own inadequate self image. Kind of slimy how you avoid the obvious, duck your responsibility in the matter. Sadly you lie easily, and have no integrity, as you have shown.

Everyone deserves a chance to repent. You however have cynically used the holocaust victims to play your own anti Mormon game, typical of the anti Mormon ilk. You are, alas an unfortunate byproduct of how low a person can sink in order to attack the church. You decided to have your own fun, and you didn't care who you hurt. No wonder you left the church. You have no empathy for anyone but yourself.

Avoid the personal comments about other posters. Address the issues not the person. -Ares