Book Of Mormon Population Numbers

[stemelbow]

I know this has been discussed to death over the years. But, in the end it seems most of these topics have been discussed to death.

I'm just curious if there are some interesting ideas out there on how the Nephite and Lamanite populations grew from Lehi's landing to Moroni's death. I do realize there were times when there was significant intermixing.

Did Nephi and company, after their leaving the lamanites, inherit more native inhabitants early on?

Did the Lamanites join with are adopt native inhabitants early on?

Was it a gradual thing for others, or outsiders, to incorporate into the groups?

Or did the Lamanites join themselves to a larger native population?

Did the Nephites also join themselves to a larger native population?

Was Jacob's encounter with Sherem descriptive in suggesting the population was large enough that there were those who lived among Nephites who did not know each other? If true, I don't see how else the nephite population got that large that quickly unless others were introduced.

What do you think?

[thesometimesaint]

1. We don't know about the Nephites specifically but it is a pretty good guess.

2. The BoM does say that the Lamanites did intermingle/intermarry

3. My guess was that it was faster for the Lamanites, but within 3 or 4 generations they were all well intermingled.

4. The BoM says so.

5. The BoM desn't say so directly but it is a good supposition.

6. My belief is that Nephites within 3 to 4 generations that no one could tell the difference. By that time it was a political distinction not a cultural one.

Kinda like Republicans and Democrats in the US.

Edited February 15, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[livy111us]

FAIR has a wiki on the topic:

http://www.fairwiki.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Demographics

[robuchan]

I know this has been discussed to death over the years. But, in the end it seems most of these topics have been discussed to death.

I'm just curious if there are some interesting ideas out there on how the Nephite and Lamanite populations grew from Lehi's landing to Moroni's death. I do realize there were times when there was significant intermixing.

Did Nephi and company, after their leaving the lamanites, inherit more native inhabitants early on?

Did the Lamanites join with are adopt native inhabitants early on?

Was it a gradual thing for others, or outsiders, to incorporate into the groups?

Or did the Lamanites join themselves to a larger native population?

Did the Nephites also join themselves to a larger native population?

Was Jacob's encounter with Sherem descriptive in suggesting the population was large enough that there were those who lived among Nephites who did not know each other? If true, I don't see how else the nephite population got that large that quickly unless others were introduced.

What do you think?

Something occurred to me that hadn't before I just reread the Jacob-Sherem encounter.

Apologists like to talk about the Nephites and Lamanites being quickly absorbed into a larger culture, losing Hebrew culture and language, etc. But Sherem talks about the conflict as a Christ vs Law of Moses thing. Not a Christ vs Mayan worship thing. So it appears if these people were absorbed into a larger population, that it was the Hebrew culture that won out.

[stemelbow]

Something occurred to me that hadn't before I just reread the Jacob-Sherem encounter.

Apologists like to talk about the Nephites and Lamanites being quickly absorbed into a larger culture, losing Hebrew culture and language, etc. But Sherem talks about the conflict as a Christ vs Law of Moses thing. Not a Christ vs Mayan worship thing. So it appears if these people were absorbed into a larger population, that it was the Hebrew culture that won out.

This is interesting. What would we expect to see among these poeple (area if we're thinking Maya), looking back now through remains and such, that would show a christ vs Law of Moses thing, rather than a Christ vs mayan worship thing?

The case of sherem is a fascinating point here. If Sherem was going about preaching and if jacob was going about preaching, who were they preaching to? Jacob could have been 100 years old but most of the group, without intermixing, would be in his family. The text makes it seem like its quite a thriving population at this point, but how could that be (in terms of population growth)?

[cdowis]

I think that the Nephites did not intermarry with the natives, following the law of Moses. The Lamanites had no such restriction, and that is why their numbers were so much greater than the Nephites, even when the latter practiced polygamy.

But that brings up the question on who was marrying second wives since there was such a close relationship among the small Nephite population.

[robuchan]

This is interesting. What would we expect to see among these poeple (area if we're thinking Maya), looking back now through remains and such, that would show a christ vs Law of Moses thing, rather than a Christ vs mayan worship thing?

The case of sherem is a fascinating point here. If Sherem was going about preaching and if jacob was going about preaching, who were they preaching to? Jacob could have been 100 years old but most of the group, without intermixing, would be in his family. The text makes it seem like its quite a thriving population at this point, but how could that be (in terms of population growth)?

One possible explanation would be the author of the text made a mistake in creating an internally inconsistent narrative.

[thesometimesaint]

No more than the authors of any ancient text.

[livy111us]

This is interesting. What would we expect to see among these poeple (area if we're thinking Maya), looking back now through remains and such, that would show a christ vs Law of Moses thing, rather than a Christ vs mayan worship thing?

The case of sherem is a fascinating point here. If Sherem was going about preaching and if jacob was going about preaching, who were they preaching to? Jacob could have been 100 years old but most of the group, without intermixing, would be in his family. The text makes it seem like its quite a thriving population at this point, but how could that be (in terms of population growth)?

I see nothing wrong with it, just look at anti-Mormons today. They include Muslims, Christians, Catholics, atheist's, etc.... who learn of our beliefs in order to tear them down. The very popular Christian critic Celsus, in early Christianity was a part of the large belief system of philosophy and probably paganism, but who lived in the same area as Christianity was a part of. He, and many of his Jewish counterparts, learned Christianity and fought against it. They were not part of Christianity, and in most cases were never a part of it but still wrote many popular books against it. So just because Sherem mentions Biblical concepts does not mean that he had to have been a descendant of Nephi. He may have learned about it from missionary efforts, or living closely to the Nephites just as the early anti-Christians did.

[LeSellers]

We could consider the possibility that Lehi, Nephi, Sam, and the others took Plural wives during their eight-year stay in the wilderness of afflictions. I see some evidence of this in 1 Nephi and Jacob. Not overwhelming evidence, but hints. We don't know if there were just the seven (or eight, if you count Sariah—I do not) fertile women (a daughter of Ishmael for Zoram and each of Lehi's four elder sons, and Nephi's two sisters for Ishmael's boys) or many more. Whatever the case, in much less than a century, the principle of Plural Marriage was so widespread that Jacob interdicted the practice among the Nephites because they were using it as an excuse for adultery and other sexual sins. Lehi had received a commandment on the matter of Plural Marriage, although what it was is a complete blank.

It is possible that Nephi had a couple of dozen children, along with his righteous brothers' (and Zoram's) potentially numerous posterity. In three generations, that could result in a sizable group of people. And, given both Nephi and Jacob's righteous teaching to their children and nephews, we would have a considerable number of "Nephites", even without including local aborigines.

Lehi

[Kevin Christensen]

The best resources on Lehites and Pre-columbian populations are:

Matt Roper: Nephi's Neighbors

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=15&num=2&id=505

Brant Gardner:

A Social History of the Early Nephites:

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2001-fair-conference/2001-a-social-history-of-the-early-nephites

Regarding the conflict between Sherem and Jacob, one important thing to consider is that Sherem's arguments reflect the conclusions of the Deuteronomist Reformers, and that Jacob represents the earlier Wisdom tradition. That is, the arguments represent contemporary conflicts in the Jerusalem that Lehi left. I've suggested that Sherem could be a Mulekite trader. Brant has other suggestions.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Calm]

But that brings up the question on who was marrying second wives since there was such a close relationship among the small Nephite population.

Not marrying first cousins is a recent development and is still legally allowed, IIRC, in many states and other countries. Same things with nieces and nephews IIRC.

Edited February 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

2. The BoM does say that the Lamanites did intermingle/intermarry

"Say" might be a little strong. Maybe "infer" would be more accurate (with the understanding that inference can be in the eye of the beholder).

[rameumptom]

When Nephi left his brothers, it specifically states him taking Zoram, Sam, Jacob, Joseph, his sisters and their families, and then anyone else who would go with them. It seems they may already have encountered and conquered peoples in the Americas prior to slipping away. (2 Ne 4).

Then, in chapter 5, Nephi notes he has built a temple like Solomon's. For a rag tag group of perhaps 20 adults, that would not be possible. They definitely had to encounter and lead others into building the temple.

[stemelbow]

When Nephi left his brothers, it specifically states him taking Zoram, Sam, Jacob, Joseph, his sisters and their families, and then anyone else who would go with them. It seems they may already have encountered and conquered peoples in the Americas prior to slipping away. (2 Ne 4).

Then, in chapter 5, Nephi notes he has built a temple like Solomon's. For a rag tag group of perhaps 20 adults, that would not be possible. They definitely had to encounter and lead others into building the temple.

When I read the text itself I have a hard time identifying anything that really explains more people were added then what is specifically mentioned. Just after the passage you mention wherein it tells us who split away from the Lamanites, we are told 30 years have passed since Lehi left Jerusalem, then suddenly with very little else said we are told 40 years had passed--and with that 40 years passing a comment is made about how they had wars with their brothren. One would, perhaps, assume that the group that left were smaller than the group they left from. But to put names to Laman's group is hard beyond a few. There seem to be less names, that we know of, in Laman's group, but perhaps there were more people. Where did these folks comes from? Ishmael died in the travels in Arabia, but his family was still around. Most of Lehi's family stuck with Nephi. Perhaps most of Ishmael's stuck with Laman?

With Zoram and his family, Nephi, Sam and their familes, we may have somewhere around 20 people, perhaps, although most of that number might be kids. Add to that Jacob, Joseph, and Nephi's sisters (no families were mentioned as associated with these). We may have 25 people. Then there is that ambiguous "and all those who would go with me". Who are they? And if there are unnamed people going with Nephi how many such people were associated with Laman's group? Were there more people from jerusalem that came with them, or did they encounter others who joined with them?

Also, how many years from the time of landing until Lehi passed away do you think? We have the estimated years of their landing somewhere around 590 BC. Lehi's death is harder to guage with a range for that chapter from 588 to 570. It seems like it could have been anywhere from 2 years to 20 years. How long between Lehi's death and the separation? It appears Jacob and Joseph could have been born close to around 590 BC. They might not have been 20 by the time Lehi died, or by the time of the groups separating.

We dont' have much. Its hard to figure how the population grew.

[Cobalt-70]

We could consider the possibility that Lehi, Nephi, Sam, and the others took Plural wives during their eight-year stay in the wilderness of afflictions. I see some evidence of this in 1 Nephi and Jacob. Not overwhelming evidence, but hints. We don't know if there were just the seven (or eight, if you count Sariah—I do not) fertile women (a daughter of Ishmael for Zoram and each of Lehi's four elder sons, and Nephi's two sisters for Ishmael's boys) or many more. Whatever the case, in much less than a century, the principle of Plural Marriage was so widespread that Jacob interdicted the practice among the Nephites because they were using it as an excuse for adultery and other sexual sins. Lehi had received a commandment on the matter of Plural Marriage, although what it was is a complete blank.

It is possible that Nephi had a couple of dozen children, along with his righteous brothers' (and Zoram's) potentially numerous posterity. In three generations, that could result in a sizable group of people. And, given both Nephi and Jacob's righteous teaching to their children and nephews, we would have a considerable number of "Nephites", even without including local aborigines.

Lehi

Polygyny does not, in itself, increase the population growth, and in fact may actually decrease it, considering that some men may be infertile and thus take otherwise fertile women out of commission. The bottlenecks for population growth are (1) the number of women, and (2) the pregnancy rate, and (3) the infant mortality and death rate. New colonies inescapably have high infant mortality and death rates. Moreover, a small group of 20 or so, if that were the entire size of the gene pool, would have lots of genetic issues related to inbreeding, particularly if there were taboos against polyandry, and particularly when there were already genetic relationships to begin with. It would have been a very sickly population.

But then again, if the Nephites themselves mixed with a larger body of Olmecs or some other pre-existing culture, then why were their descendants white?

[LeSellers]

Polygyny does not, in itself, increase the population growth, and in fact may actually decrease it, considering that some men may be infertile and thus take otherwise fertile women out of commission. The bottlenecks for population growth are (1) the number of women, and (2) the pregnancy rate, and (3) the infant mortality and death rate.

1. I hypothesized that Lehi, et al., took additional wives from the people in Arabia on their travels from Nehom to Bountiful. The trip lasted eight years, and was marked by "afflictions". The women were unrelated to the Lehite/Ishamelite/Zoramite tribe(s), and were in addition to Sariah and the daughters of Lehi and Ishmael.
   
2. Pregnancy rate would be on the upper extreme, since there was an imperative to populate the Land of Promise. Remember one of the potential polygynists was Jacob who received the Lord's word that He would raise up seed unto Himself using Plural Marriage to do so.
   
3. There is no reason to assume that the infant mortality rate (nor the maternal mortality rate) was very high. The Lord made the women "strong, like unto the men" and they did "give plenty of suck" to their children.
   

New colonies inescapably have high infant mortality and death rates.

CFR.

Moreover, a small group of 20 or so, if that were the entire size of the gene pool, would have lots of genetic issues related to inbreeding, particularly if there were taboos against polyandry, and particularly when there were already genetic relationships to begin with. It would have been a very sickly population.

If my hypothesis is correct, the gene pools would have been far larger, maybe 40 or more, and perhaps more than half would have been only distantly related to each other among the original parents. We could imagine a Solomon-like level of 1,000 wives for each man, but it works as well, or better, with a 3 (or 4):1 ratio of wives to husbands. If each wife had five children (I believe very conservative), that would be ~31 wives and 155 children in the first generation. We should recall that people in this kind of situation married very early by our modern standards, and that many of these "children" will have been raising their own families only a dozen years after Lehi left Jerusalem, and only a couple of years after Nephi hollered "Land! Ho!" (Jacob and Joseph, for instance were born before they left Bountiful, and even though they were still nursing aboard the ship, we would not be too far off the mark to assign them the age of two years at that point—sons were allowed to nurse until they got tired of it.) If my hypothesis is correct, there would have been cousins for them to have married even if there were no native girls waiting for them on shore.

Further the common refrain of inbreeding results in "a very sickly population" exhibits a poor understanding of genetics. It is true that bad traits are passed down from generation to generation if they exist, but it is also true that good traits are similarly passed down to an equal degree.

Cattlemen and other animal husbandmen can explain how inbreeding is a powerful tool used to improve their herds. Very sickly populations are, by definition, not a herd improvement.

if the Nephites themselves mixed with a larger body of Olmecs or some other pre-existing culture, then why were their descendants white?

It rather depends on how "unwhite" the Olmecs or other native populations were. It also depends on how "white" one sees the Hebrew Nephites as having been.

The Jews of the i~I were not "white" in the same sense that the Gauls in northern France were, at least according to Julius Caesar. Nephi was measuring something other than dermal melanin concentration when he described the Lamanites as being black, although he was specific about its having something to do with skin tone as one attribute of the mark of the curse they took upon themselves in their rebellion. How did that happen? I don't know: Nephi said nothing. However, we know that his sisters were among those who came with him when he fled Laman and Lemuel. Were they the same sisters who left from Jerusalem, or others, born to Lehi by a Plural wife/ves?

If the former, that meant that Ishmael's sons were now alone, and would have taken additional wives from among the local peoples. It may well have been that Laman and Lemuel's wives left their husbands, too, I don't know and am no more than pondering possibilities. That might explain, since they had married outside the covenant, that their posterities were of darker skin than that of the Nephites. (BTW, to avert an attack on this point, the people Lehi traveled among in Arabia were still Semites, and, thus, were people of the covenant, since Shem, the great High Priest, was the founder of the covenant people after Noah. Abraham, and, later, Moses, only extended that covenant through the ages, and re-established it in a narrower population.)

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

There is no reason to assume that infant deaths in ancient Mesoamerica were any less than in the 1950's in third world countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Modern medicine is great.

[LeSellers]

There is no reason to assume that infant deaths in ancient Mesoamerica were any less than in the 1950's in third world countries.

Modern medicine is great.

There are very good reasons to assume that infant deaths among the Lehites were lower. Nephi explicitly says the women were strong (stronger than he expected them to be, even "like unto the men") and that they gave "plenty of suck" to their children.

Those are affirmative statements, and they lead to the well-based conclusion that the Lehite children were far more likely to live past age 5 than their contemporaries.

Moreover, it's a sad state of affairs when the over-medicated mothers of USmerica can't outdo their sisters in Africa precisely because of all the unnecessary medical intervention the former undergo in hospitals. There is no reason for a doctor in 98% of deliveries, and even among that 2%, a doctor is superfluous more than half of the time. My Jacquie delivered one of our sons in her mother's house (it would have been in ours, but we hadn't finished moving in yet). One of our daughters has delivered six of her seven children at home (precisely because of the horrific treatment she received in the hospital with her first). The other of our girls has had six of her seven in birthing centers for the same reason. Our daughters-in-law have had their 13 children in hospitals, and every one of them has had a less-than-perfect experience. Why they don't wise up is a puzzle to the two of us.

Obstetricians are too numerous, and far too expensive. They are parasites, preying on the fears of women, and using the potentially lethal power of the state to limit how mothers can deliver their children.

Lehi

[Mariner]

In reading this thread so far, I see there is no mention of the fact that there is no archeological or genetic evidence whatsoever that the Jaredite or the Lehite migrations, as described in the Book of Mormon, ever occurred.

Before making wild and unfounded speculations as to Nephite and Lamanited population numbers would it not make sense to first establish that the namesake progenitors of these groups actually existed?

[Cobalt-70]

1. I hypothesized that Lehi, et al., took additional wives from the people in Arabia on their travels from Nehom to Bountiful. The trip lasted eight years, and was marked by "afflictions". The women were unrelated to the Lehite/Ishamelite/Zoramite tribe(s), and were in addition to Sariah and the daughters of Lehi and Ishmael.
   
2. Pregnancy rate would be on the upper extreme, since there was an imperative to populate the Land of Promise. Remember one of the potential polygynists was Jacob who received the Lord's word that He would raise up seed unto Himself using Plural Marriage to do so.
   
3. There is no reason to assume that the infant mortality rate (nor the maternal mortality rate) was very high. The Lord made the women "strong, like unto the men" and they did "give plenty of suck" to their children.
   

I just can't see how this this could be true, when Jacob 1:15 says that the people at the death of Nephi "began" to indulge in the "wicked practices" of "desiring many wives and concubines." Then in Jacob 2:24, the thing that David and Solomon did that was "abominable" was that they "had many wives and concubines." If Jacob himself had many wives (because God told him to), and his father had many wives, then wouldn't he have put it a little differently? Wouldn't he have been at all concerned that somebody would accuse him of hypocrisy, and if so, then would he not have addressed that?

Besides, that 's just one generation of polygamy. In the long run, that's not going to make much of a difference in population size, unless we are talking about a lot of wives--like numbers of wives on the order of David, Solomon, or the Persian kings. And if that were the case, how did they all fit on the boat? And where did they come from? Maidens don't grow on trees in the Arabian desert.

CFR.

I should ask you to name one isolated human colony that did not have a high mortality rate. Jamestown was settled in 1607 with 104 men, but 2/3 of them died the first year (see any history of Jamestown). Among the women who came on the Mayflower, 72% of them died (58% of the men died). The death rate and infant mortality rate of such colonies has to be higher than the rate would be had they not tried to colonize, because where they came from they had much easier access to safe food, they were not immune from new diseases that were circulating in the new country, they had better shelter, and they were wealthier as a result of trade resources in the old world which were not available in the new.

Further the common refrain of inbreeding results in "a very sickly population" exhibits a poor understanding of genetics. It is true that bad traits are passed down from generation to generation if they exist, but it is also true that good traits are similarly passed down to an equal degree.

Cattlemen and other animal husbandmen can explain how inbreeding is a powerful tool used to improve their herds. Very sickly populations are, by definition, not a herd improvement.

Inbreeding of cattle may reinforce traits favorable to their domesticated uses, but inbreeding doesn't help them survive in the wild. A wild population of inbred domestic cattle would be very sickly, and one bad virus could wipe them all out.

[ERMD]

There is no reason for a doctor in 98% of deliveries, and even among that 2%, a doctor is superfluous more than half of the time.

Obstetricians are too numerous, and far too expensive. They are parasites, preying on the fears of women, and using the potentially lethal power of the state to limit how mothers can deliver their children.

Lehi

I usually find your posts interesting and informative. This however, is ridiculous.

CFR on the first part quoted above.

The second statement is near-sighted and incredibly ill-informed, your anecdotal "evidence" notwithstanding.

[cdowis]

Let's look at some things:

1. It is very unlikely that Lehi was a polygamist. Just read Jacob's sermon. I cannot imagine that his father practiced polygamy within the context of his speech.

2. There are those who mention that that Lehi, et al, took families from the Arabian peninsula. There may have been dozens of families who were converted during their wanderings and came along.

3. Nephi mentioned they came across domesticated goats and the ox when they landed.

4. There was a recent discovery in Costa Rica that their 1500 year burial rites had suddenly changed around 600 BCE. They moved their burial sites from within the village to outside the village, which would correspond to Hebrew custom. I am suggesting that these natives joined the Nephites very soon after Lehi landed.

5. Perhaps as part of their conversion, the "others" became familiar with the Brass Plates and found out about polygamy. That could have been a very large group consistent with the Jacob's comments.

6. As part of the Mosaic law, the Nephites were unlikely to have intermingled with the "others", but the Lamanites would have no such compuction.

[cdowis]

dup

Edited February 17, 2012 by cdowis

[cdowis]

dup

Edited February 17, 2012 by cdowis