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Lds Blacks And Women…Not He Same Thing In The Priesthood.


Bill “Papa” Lee

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While reading this opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune…

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/53432622-82/god-priesthood-alike-black.html.csp

…one thing because clear to me; that the Priesthood band on blacks, is a misunderstood doctrine at best. We alone share this burden and we have no one to blame for this misunderstanding but ourselves. But God limiting the Priesthood to certain races or tribes does have a historical background, however one thing is for sure is that I would not have defended nor will I ever defend this policy for my own reasons.

But in the piece (that I link), “Blacks and Women” are linked. This is not a fair comparison in terms of doctrinal position. Throughout the history of all major religions women have been prevented from holding the keys of the Priesthood (except in very limited circumstances), but not in fulfilling the role of leaders of armies or Nations. But the role of the Priesthood dates back to the beginning of all historical scripture. I will defend this policy regardless of my personal views.

Also it worth noting that no candidate for any office outside of the Church callings (where there are no candidates), are running for the position of Church Leader. For Mormons: do not feel picked on this...This is a common tactics of the media.

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I wouldn't take the Priesthood on a silver platter!! Even if it WAS offered to women! Let the men have that responsibility and accountability! That lady has no clue what the Priesthood is really all about.

Women don't need the Priesthood. No blessing is denied us because we are women. Our prayers are answered no differently because we are women. Anyone who's gone through the Temple knows how important women are to the eternities and the plan of salvation. That's good enough for me.

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I wouldn't take the Priesthood on a silver platter!! Even if it WAS offered to women! Let the men have that responsibility and accountability! That lady has no clue what the Priesthood is really all about.

Women don't need the Priesthood. No blessing is denied us because we are women. Our prayers are answered no differently because we are women. Anyone who's gone through the Temple knows how important women are to the eternities and the plan of salvation. That's good enough for me.

Well stated...

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I wouldn't take the Priesthood on a silver platter!! Even if it WAS offered to women! Let the men have that responsibility and accountability! That lady has no clue what the Priesthood is really all about.

Women don't need the Priesthood. No blessing is denied us because we are women. Our prayers are answered no differently because we are women. Anyone who's gone through the Temple knows how important women are to the eternities and the plan of salvation. That's good enough for me.

I recall prior to 1st Gulf war, a discussion emerged about Kuwaiti women not having equal rights, voting, owning property, driving cars, etc.

A wife of a high ranking Kuwaiti women was trying to justify the discrimination, claimed that she had no desire to drive, and she liked having men drive her around.

Of course, one of the nice things about having the right ... to drive ... is the right to choose not to drive. I thought it quite odd that she speak to deny other women the right to drive, simply because she herself chose not to drive.

Likewise, I find it quite odd that LDS women would be advocates for denying rights to women, simply because they personally would choose not to exercise such rights if granted to them.

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Jaybear:

NO ONE has a right to the Priesthood. It is by Calling only.

Semantics. Women are not ELIGIBLE to be called to the LDS priesthood.

My point was that the mere fact that someone posting as GingerRed doesn't personally want the responsibility and accountability, is a poor argument for explaining why all women are denied the priesthood.

Unless you think that all good and worthy LDS women think like, or SHOULD think like GingerRed.

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It really is not semantics. Most men do not have the "right" to hold the Priesthood.

Yes, it really is.

No one has the "right" to work for my company. They must be qualified, and be offered a position.

If one of the qualifications is that they must be male, then women, who are otherwise qualified, would be denied the right to work at my company.

Pa Pa:

I'll slightly disagree. No man has the "right" to the Priesthood either. We are Called of God to serve as Priesthood. God could at any time for any reason revoke it. I don't see him as doing that, but it is possible.

So what exactly did God say, to whom and when, that caused the priesthood which had otherwise at one point been held by women and at least one black man to be revoked?

Where is your evidence that this exclusion is (or for blacks was) God's idea and not simply cultural?

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Jaybear:

Women have never held the Priesthood. They can/do have the power to envoke blessings simply by being wives, mothers, and members of the Church.

BTW; Just being a woman and a member of the Church they have more authority than all of the other Christians combined.

I don't know as there was a direct revelation from God concerning the blacks being denied the Priesthood. It seems as though it was a POLICY instituted by Brigham Young. David O. McKay chipped away at it. Then finally done away with by revelation to Spencer W. Kimball.

BTW; Just being a black and a member of the Church. They had more authority than all of the other Christians combined.

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Yes, it really is.

It certainly is when Jaybear starts playing his little semantic games.

No one has the "right" to work for my company. They must be qualified, and be offered a position.

If one of the qualifications is that they must be male, then women, who are otherwise qualified, would be denied the right to work at my company.

Whether anyone has the "right" to work at your company is a different question. The only question before us is whether anyone -- at all -- has the "right" to demand or expect to be ordained to the Priesthood.

And it turns out that they do not.

So what exactly did God say, to whom and when, that caused the priesthood which had otherwise at one point been held by women and at least one black man to be revoked?

So I take it you are hopping aboard the bandwagon that says the two things are somehow related; and thus, we've been jaybeared again. More evidence, if it was needed, that they are not related.

Call for references, please, that there is any record of any woman anywhere being actually ordained to any Priesthood office with approval of the leaders of the Church.

Regards,

Pahoran

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Jaybear:

Women have never held the Priesthood.

Not according to this book: Sidney Rigdon: Portrait of Religious Excess by Richard Van Wagoner. Sidney claimed that Emma Smith was the first woman to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood

I don't know as there was a direct revelation from God concerning the blacks being denied the Priesthood. It seems as though it was a POLICY instituted by Brigham Young. David O. McKay chipped away at it. Then finally done away with by revelation to Spencer W. Kimball.

Given this ambiguity, what basis do you have to believe that the denying the women the priesthood is God's doctrine or merely the policy instituted in the 1800s when women had few rights.

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It certainly is when Jaybear starts playing his little semantic games.

Whether anyone has the "right" to work at your company is a different question. The only question before us is whether anyone -- at all -- has the "right" to demand or expect to be ordained to the Priesthood.

And it turns out that they do not.

No, that was never the question. As LDS Church is a religious organization, women have no legal right to "demand or expect" to be ordained to the priesthood.

The question was why aren't women allowed to hold the priesthood.

My only point, before a semantic discussion of "rights" came up was that GingerRed's personal desire not to hold the priesthood, is, in and of itself not a satisfactory answer to the question.

So I take it you are hopping aboard the bandwagon that says the two things are somehow related; and thus, we've been jaybeared again. More evidence, if it was needed, that they are not related.

The concepts are related, if you believe that women and a black man once held the priesthood. If not, then I can see why you think their is a disconnect.

BTW, please stop with the gratuitous insults ("jaybeared"). For once, try having a discussion with me, with resorting to personal insults.

Call for references, please, that there is any record of any woman anywhere being actually ordained to any Priesthood office with approval of the leaders of the Church.

See above post for reference. But if you want to believe that LDS women were never called to the priesthood, I have no desire to disabuse you of your belief.

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Semantics. Women are not ELIGIBLE to be called to the LDS priesthood.

My point was that the mere fact that someone posting as GingerRed doesn't personally want the responsibility and accountability, is a poor argument for explaining why all women are denied the priesthood.

Unless you think that all good and worthy LDS women think like, or SHOULD think like GingerRed.

I think for myself, thank you! I am a convert to the church for over 30 years. My opinion is my own. No one told me how to think about women not having the Priesthood. It's never bothered me, why should it? There are plenty of LDS women who have the same opinion , including many of my girlfriends, many who are also converts. Like I said....if you understand it correctly, women certainly are not missing out on anything just because we aren't a priesthood holder.

Good grief, don't we women in the church have enough to do without running with the boys to keep them in line? LOL

Just what, jaybear, do you think is so all fired important about women holding the Priesthood? Why do YOU think we women even need it?

Red

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So was Emma Smith ordained an elder, or a high priest?

I'm really curious.

Yeah, right. I don't doubt that you are already quite familiar with the claims made by Wagner in his book, or by Quinn's in his book, and by Lavina Anderson in her paper. In light of your comments, its evident now that LDS apologists dispute or seek to minimize the import of these claims.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me one bit whether that ever held such rights. I don't harbor any belief that the men who gave or took back, or never gave women any such authorities did so or didn't do so at the direction of God.

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The concepts are related, if you believe that women and a black man once held the priesthood. If not, then I can see why you think their is a disconnect.

I am aware of no record of any woman ever being ordained. I am aware of more than one black man being ordained, with the consent of the leaders of the Church, prior to 1978.

BTW, please stop with the gratuitous insults ("jaybeared"). For once, try having a discussion with me, with resorting to personal insults.

You stop insulting our intelligence by jaybearing us, and I'll stop pointing out that that's what you're doing.

See above post for reference.

You provided no reference. You gave a link to a web page that advertises a book, but that does not cover the subject at hand. I'm not going to buy and read an entire book just to find out that it doesn't support your assertion. What does the book actually say -- quote, please -- and on what page?

But if you want to believe that LDS women were never called to the priesthood, I have no desire to disabuse you of your belief.

How very patronising of you. The magnanimously condescending pose is a clever fall-back if you can't actually support your assertions.

Sorry Jaybear, but your shell game won't work. You see, I really want to know. So again: Call for references that there is any record of any woman being ordained to any Priesthood office with the approval of the leaders of the Church.

Where is it?

Regards,

Pahoran

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