Bond...James Bond Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Even Mr. Mahar picks his targets to those that can't or won't fight back. Being a bully is fun until someone cleans your clock. Rhetorically speaking of course.Have you ever seen Maher perform? He talks about Islam's problems plenty. And there are probably a few Muslims who will literally "clean your clock" if you upset them. Edited February 7, 2012 by Bond...James Bond
Scott Lloyd Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I fully understand that and would still prefer in not having my LDS relatives perform the ordinance even though I'm wasting my breath and know they WILL NOT honor it. That's the rub.Pardon, but expressing a preference that persons of another faith not engage in a revered ordinance and not being able to articulate a good reason for that preference strikes me as intolerance.It would never occur to me to express a preference that the Catholic parish in Salt Lake not pray for the soul of Gordon B. Hinckley. It a fudamental right of any individual or group to pray for whomever or whatever they choose. And I have no right to hinder them in the expression of their religious faith.
thesometimesaint Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Bond...James Bond:Yes I have. I've also heard him say that he feared Muslim reprisal if he went too far. Go figure.
KevinG Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I suspect the nature of a former mixed Catholic/Mormon marriage colors the opinions of both parties on how to be tolerent and respectful of the others religion and what behavior towards the others religion one can justify. Either that or justifacation of behavior towards the other spouses religion was a cause of the split. Perhaps it is a bit of both.
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 The answer to yours is obvious isn't it? We all need the ordinance done, whether in this life or by proxy. The ordinance of baptism HAS been done by the proper authority and the RCC recognizes the baptism of other faiths.Of course, the issue is that the LDS church only recognizes it's own authority since you're a 'Restoration-type' of a church. The RCC also recognizes no need to baptize the Jews while LDS feels the need to baptize everyone. I see no agreement in sight.
KevinG Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Bond...James Bond:Yes I have. I've also heard him say that he feared Muslim reprisal if he went too far. Go figure.Ha! Fear of Islamic Jihad?Just wait until the sacred underwear shielded Danites put the fear of Heavenly Mother into Mahr!!
KevinG Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 The ordinance of baptism HAS been done by the proper authority and the RCC recognizes the baptism of other faiths.Of course, the issue is that the LDS church only recognizes it's own authority since you're a 'Restoration-type' of a church. The RCC also recognizes no need to baptize the Jews while LDS feels the need to baptize everyone. I see no agreement in sight.If I'm wrong will the Catholic Church do me the courtesy of providing a proxy baptism so Ican return to Heaven or am I stuck in Limbo forever because I didn't get the denomonation quite correct?
thesometimesaint Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Daddy G:Carefully she has a long ruler, and knows how to use it.Said with all the deference I have to the good Catholic Nuns that I had in school. Ps; I think you'd be covered by the Baptism by Desire. blueadept can tell me if I'm wrong. Edited February 7, 2012 by thesometimesaint
Jeff K. Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I wonder why no one is offended when people pray for others?
Ares Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 BTW, rather than tell us what you think the ceremony is about, why don't you provide the script for the ceremony. Or is a secret?You know that Temple content is sacred to LDS and not permitted to be linked or quoted on this board. You are excused from this discussion.
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Why should anyone refrain from practicing their religion because you ask them to and even put up barriers to their practice? Why do you equate this disrespect and opposition to honor in any way?I certainly don't tell the Catholics not to use wine in their sacraments becuase it may offend my Mormon sensibilities.I fully endorsed my wife to go to the Temple. I just wished for her to not share (even though I knew what was done there) information that openly went against my Catholic beliefs. I admit that I don't miss the dual-faith household issues that we dealt with in raising half the family LDS and the other half as Catholics. I was fine in going to both churches on Sunday. It was the rest of Sunday that was difficult to the point of hating the day.
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I wonder why no one is offended when people pray for others?...because it's the Christian thing to do and it's not an ordinance (sacrament).
Scott Lloyd Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 The ordinance of baptism HAS been done by the proper authority and the RCC recognizes the baptism of other faiths.Latter-day Saints recognize the right of the Roman Catholic Church to hold that belief, just as we assert our own right to believe that the ordinances of salvation are necessary for every member of the human family and to perform those ordinances by proxy for deceased persons who need them, conditional upon the acceptance of the ordinance by the individual.
KevinG Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Isn't that kind of like a Christian Scientist allowing their spouse to take the kid to the hospital but refusing to release medical records necessary for treatment?That doesn't sound like a full endorsement to me.For the record I have a Catholic friend who prays for me routinely and tells me about it. I really, really appreciate him doing that and I don't think is prayers are any less effective than mine.
thesometimesaint Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Jaybear:I don't know whether you can read this or not.You are stating that we believe that Mother Teresa's life was somehow incomplete not being a mormon.We don't believe that. All we are doing is providing the opportunity to accept or reject the Restored Gospel. Whether she or anyone else accepts or reject it is between God and them.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) ...because it's the Christian thing to do and it's not an ordinance (sacrament).It is still a religious ritual. No one has the right to prevent another from engaging in a religious ritual that is in no way harmful to others. Edited February 7, 2012 by Scott Lloyd
stemelbow Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 ...because it's the Christian thing to do and it's not an ordinance (sacrament).so its all because its an ordinance that cuases offense?
Mudcat Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Mudcat, when I die would you have a Mass said for me?I could try, I am not Catholic and have 0 experience in what is involved in a Mass and I am afraid my efforts would be almost as poorly contrived as Mr. Maher's, were I to attempt such.We normally just have plain old funerals where I am from, though we are prone to come up with odd and end impromptu rituals.What if I just said a prayer for you, sang "Amazing Grace" with my accoustic for accompaniment, spent an hour contriving a few clever posts about how you'd be missed and how it just wouldn't be the same on the forum without you and some other desparing thoughts related to your absence.. to ensure you were sufficiently missed by all. Then when completed, I could smoke a fine cigar and take a stiff shot of Irish whiskey in honor of all those years you didn't? Edited February 7, 2012 by Mudcat 1
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 If I'm wrong will the Catholic Church do me the courtesy of providing a proxy baptism so Ican return to Heaven or am I stuck in Limbo forever because I didn't get the denomonation quite correct?Limbo is not a mandatory Catholic belief while Purgatory is. While baptism is the only known way in the Catholic Church for a person to saved, we believe God will judge those who haven't been baptised by the way they lived their life and leave that judgement up to God.So, we leave the judgement up to God and if you make it to Purgatory, you WILL be cleansed of any venial sins and your next stop will be in Heaven. There is no 'being stuck' in purgatory.
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) so its all because its an ordinance that cuases offense?IMO.....yes. Especially when the ordinance has already been performed for them and they've lived up to those covenants made in baptism.From my POV, LDS are not recognizing (respecting) the covenants the person has already committed to. Edited February 7, 2012 by blueadept
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 It is still a religious ritual. No one has the right to prevent another from engaging in a religious ritual that is in no way harmful to others. I'm not aware of anyone who raises personal prayer to the level of an ordinace (sacrament); therefore, I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Catholics do not perform sacraments for the dead. Once the body is cold, we don't even perform last rites.
BlueDreams Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 The fact that the RCC takes FOREVER to make a decision leads me to the fact that issue has been thoroughly thought out. The RCC originally took the safe position of recognizing LDS baptisms until it could be thoroughly researched into what LDS truly believe. Once they came to the understanding that we have a totally different understanding about the nature of God, the decision came about to not recognize LDS baptisms even though you were using the correct formula to baptize. Of course the RCC recognizes baptisms from many other faiths while LDS only recognizes their own baptism. I suspect their request for us in not cooperating with LDS members stems from this point in not recognizing your baptisms as they do with other faiths.I don't know much about the faith. But something of interest. The RCC opened a number of Italian records for indexing to the LDS church recently, quietly. I'm aware of it because my ward was one of a number that had the oppurtunity to index them. It was only for a short period of time and it was supposed to be on the quiet side of things, But I'm curious how this would fit with the priest who insisted on not divulging ancestor info....when the church itself has done exactly that. This is way off topic though....it just seems inconsistent and it's kind of bothering meWith luv,BD
blueadept Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I don't know much about the faith. But something of interest. The RCC opened a number of Italian records for indexing to the LDS church recently, quietly. I'm aware of it because my ward was one of a number that had the oppurtunity to index them. It was only for a short period of time and it was supposed to be on the quiet side of things, But I'm curious how this would fit with the priest who insisted on not divulging ancestor info....when the church itself has done exactly that. This is way off topic though....it just seems inconsistent and it's kind of bothering meWith luv,BDThat's not surprising to me. It's up to the individual bishops on how they want to handle the issue and I'm only aware that the U.S. Bishops have the policy. I'm not surprised that other Bishops in other countries haven't followed suit. I suspect it's because there isn't as much LDS influence in those areas and there hasn't been a need to address this, but I can appreciate the inconsistency.Permit me to put it into a historical perspective. I've heard several times in LDS meetings that historically there once was a time that Catholic forbid it's members to read the bible. What really happened is that there was a bishop in southern France that forbid his parishioners to read the bible since they were using it to justify killing others. The Catholic Church has always approved the reading of a correctly translated bible, but one can appreciate how it was once blown out of proportion that the RCC 'forbid' the reading of the bible by the actions of one bishop.In the Catholic infrastructure, how the church is runned daily is determined by the individual bishops, so you would see potential discrepancies as you've noted. I hoped that helped.
Pahoran Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 The reason most take offense, is not because they assume the deceased becomes Mormon. That a red herring.Those who take offense, do so, because the ceremony itself is premised on your beleif the their loved ones made the wrong choice his/her life. Its a matter of respect.As I see it, the closest equivelant is EVs telling mormons that they are not Christian.The closest equivalent to what? People like you(!!) telling us(!!) what our(!!) ceremonies mean?BTW, rather than tell us what you think the ceremony is about, why don't you provide the script for the ceremony. Or is a secret?Jaybear, as you perfectly well know, Temple content is forbidden by the rules of this forum.As you also perfectly well know, faithful Latter-day Saints don't quote explicit Temple content as a matter of principle.And as the rest of us perfectly well know, you've never been able to understand how principled people think and behave, have you?Regards,Pahoran 1
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