How Do You Un-Ring A "Bell"

[mercyngrace]

I think seeing Moroni would be a completely different experience. I can't believe having doubt if I saw Moroni. That honestly is why I think Lamen and Lemuel are charicatures, not real people. Seeing an angel and having him spank you would pretty much change your life.

I understand what you are saying but I also know that it's incredibly easy to talk yourself out of believing you have seen something - even something miraculous and otherworldly.

I don't think you can unring a bell, but it depends on what bell was rung. I greatly admire JS. I think he was generally a good man. I just can't understand the atonement and the concept of sin. That has been looked at for 2000 years and even the prophets don't really address the underlying concept of punishing an innocent man for the flaws of others and how that all works. I'm not looking for an answer anytime soon. Once that thought gets put in the skull, I don't know how to worm it out.

Don't "worm it out"! Let that desire to know work on you. Wrestle with it. And, God willing, you will have an unexpected experience that changes you forever.

I did an exercise once and wrote the things about the church that I didn't understand or doubts and it was a free-flow, stream of consciousness type thing. It opened my eyes on what my relationship to the church really was and it was refreshing to be honest about it. I'm not an idiot. I've been involved with apologetics and FAIR for 10 years. I have a good library. My issues are doctrinal, as I don't have a lifestyle issue at all. I'm still working out where exactly I am. I also find it very hard to have serious conversations about it with friends. It is disturbing to them, and I don't want to upset their lives. As my wife said, I upset people's whole view of life and death and most don't want to look at things too deeply.

You know, several sections of the Bible are just prophets shouting frustrated questions at the heavens. You want answers? So did Job. And Jeremiah. Even Enos asked "Lord, how is it done?" You don't have any questions God can't answer or that He hasn't been asked before. Some answers (and some questioners) will only be satisfied with experiences. Are you prepared to climb the mountain and lay it all on the altar in order to find what you seek? For some of us, that's what it takes.

I write these things because your post resonates with me. I could have written it myself a decade ago. And even after finding my answers, I still upset people's views... Maybe that's just who we are, Darth Bill.

About 6 months ago, I turned to a friend who is on the high council, former bishop I think, quite experienced in the church and asked a pointed question about something in the scriptures that I'd been mulling over. He thought about it for a few minutes and then said "You think too much."

I just laughed. To each his own.

[ebeddoulos]

Craig,

I've been in a place where no matter which way I turned, I just couldn't get out. About fifteen years ago, my lovely bride and I almost decided to go through a divorce. Our children were raised, we were new empty-nesters, we had moved due to my new job, she had decided to go back to school, and we had both lost important people in our lives due to death. All this and a lot of other stressors made it so that it was little wonder that opinions turned from discussions into disagreements and disagreements into arguments and arguments into loud, vocal fights. Love was gone from our marriage, unhappiness permeated our home and there was no joy. Divorce seemed to be the only solution and it was not only contemplated but it was seriously explored; very seriously. The bell had been rung. However, somehow the energy was found to try just one more time. We went back to the basics. We had start anew and fall in love all over again. And we did so. Hands were re-held, little kindnesses were once again offered, kisses were tentative. The divorce was averted. I can honestly say, that the bell has been unrung. We care for each other, love each other, enjoy each other and want to be with each other far more now than ever before. Life is not just good; it is wonderful!

Craig, the point of that story is that if it is important to you to regain your testimony, you can. You must start all over again from the basics. There is only one way to gain a testimony: prayer, obedience and service. To regain a testimony requires that exact same process. Humble prayer, a sincere request, a listening inner ear, obedience to the commandments, church attendance, scriptural study, service to others, accepting and fulfilling a calling, etc.. If regaining a testimony is not important enough to you to restart the whole process then you won't regain it. If it is, I guarantee that you will unring that bell. I wish you luck in your journey.

[Darth_Bill]

>I understand what you are saying but I also know that it's incredibly easy to talk yourself out of believing you have seen something - even something miraculous and otherworldly.

Possibly, but I remember beat-downs I got when I was 8-9. No talking myself out of those. The eye provides something that is awefully persistant. If it wasn't the eye, then yes, it is easy to dismiss it. And to be fair, I have seen things that I thought were miraculous, but gaining more experience in the world has shown me that it really wasn't, it was just unfamiliar to me. I'm not denying miracles, but that I haven't seen a verifiable one. An angel slapping me down, that I would remember.

>About 6 months ago, I turned to a friend who is on the high council, former bishop I think, quite experienced in the church and asked a pointed question about something in the scriptures that I'd been mulling over. He thought about it for a few minutes and then said "You think too much."

My response would have been, "Well, I'm not going to stop." I get and understand the emotion of religion. I find that I'm an extremely grateful person and I love and appreciate all in the church and what they have done for me. But that isn't the atonement. The atonement is God needing something to get his children back and it evidently requires killing a family member that was innocent of ANYTHING. That is what I don't get. I understand that the teachings of Jesus get us to be kind to another, to forgive each other of offenses, that that isn't the atonement, that is the teachings of Jesus, which I love and appreciate. We love to equate the two, his death and his teachings. That is how we tend to gloss over the issue of an innocent man dying at God's request.

There are several atonement theories that get me closer to understanding it, but they have flaws. The most viable I've seen is the emotional one, that jesus died to drive home his point in an act so emotionally charged that people would notice....but that isn't the atonement that we teach. The one that we teach, if used in our day to day justice system, would be abhorant. We simply don't punish innocent people for the acts of others. And we don't because it doesn't make any sense.

[Craig Paxton]

I think seeing Moroni would be a completely different experience. I can't believe having doubt if I saw Moroni. That honestly is why I think Lamen and Lemuel are charicatures, not real people. Seeing an angel and having him spank you would pretty much change your life.

I don't think you can unring a bell, but it depends on what bell was rung. I greatly admire JS. I think he was generally a good man. I just can't understand the atonement and the concept of sin. That has been looked at for 2000 years and even the prophets don't really address the underlying concept of punishing an innocent man for the flaws of others and how that all works. I'm not looking for an answer anytime soon. Once that thought gets put in the skull, I don't know how to worm it out.

I did an exercise once and wrote the things about the church that I didn't understand or doubts and it was a free-flow, stream of consciousness type thing. It opened my eyes on what my relationship to the church really was and it was refreshing to be honest about it. I'm not an idiot. I've been involved with apologetics and FAIR for 10 years. I have a good library. My issues are doctrinal, as I don't have a lifestyle issue at all. I'm still working out where exactly I am. I also find it very hard to have serious conversations about it with friends. It is disturbing to them, and I don't want to upset their lives. As my wife said, I upset people's whole view of life and death and most don't want to look at things too deeply.

I would LOVE to have a conversation with you...

[Senator]

.

I don't think you can unring a bell, but it depends on what bell was rung. I greatly admire JS. I think he was generally a good man. I just can't understand the atonement and the concept of sin. That has been looked at for 2000 years and even the prophets don't really address the underlying concept of punishing an innocent man for the flaws of others and how that all works. I'm not looking for an answer anytime soon. Once that thought gets put in the skull, I don't know how to worm it out.

Perhaps it's not a "Moroni" experience that is in need, but an "Alma the younger" experience.

Do we dare pray for such a thing?

[Storm Rider]

There are several atonement theories that get me closer to understanding it, but they have flaws. The most viable I've seen is the emotional one, that jesus died to drive home his point in an act so emotionally charged that people would notice....but that isn't the atonement that we teach. The one that we teach, if used in our day to day justice system, would be abhorant. We simply don't punish innocent people for the acts of others. And we don't because it doesn't make any sense.

Yet innocent people suffer for others every day and have for all time. The very essence of life is that we suffer for those around us. Some are quite direct while other situations are indirect. Why does the wholly innocent suffer for us all? What was it about his blood that expiated us for all our sins? Is Justice a being that demands recompense for all the ills of the universe? Or is justice just a principle of the Great God of the universe?

We may contemplate the mysteries, but I hope their contemplation does not drive us from that which feeds us the Living Water.

[Darth_Bill]

>Yet innocent people suffer for others every day and have for all time.

Yes, but nothing in a metaphysical way. This is what Ostler boiled down, at least, as I read it. The atonement didn't do anything and doesn't make sense unless there is some "energy" to sin. If sin does have an energy, then yes, I can see it doing something along with convincing myself that somehow having a god die also did something to that energy. Those are some real strong premises and still only mean something in a culture used to "scapegoating" their problems away.

Actually, the most profound thing that has happened to make me question all of it and solidify it even more is talking to someone that I had wronged decades earlier. It was a frank conversation and I was forgiven....forgiven of something that had tortured me for years. And not one person had to die. Why then is God incapable of doing that himself?

[Storm Rider]

>Yet innocent people suffer for others every day and have for all time.

Yes, but nothing in a metaphysical way. This is what Ostler boiled down, at least, as I read it. The atonement didn't do anything and doesn't make sense unless there is some "energy" to sin. If sin does have an energy, then yes, I can see it doing something along with convincing myself that somehow having a god die also did something to that energy. Those are some real strong premises and still only mean something in a culture used to "scapegoating" their problems away.

Actually, the most profound thing that has happened to make me question all of it and solidify it even more is talking to someone that I had wronged decades earlier. It was a frank conversation and I was forgiven....forgiven of something that had tortured me for years. And not one person had to die. Why then is God incapable of doing that himself?

Again, mysteries. Would that we could grasp more of them, but there was a reason that Jesus taught some things to the few rather than to the many. For me, in my humble, pointed-headed way, I just put things back on the shelf to consider again later. It allows me to focus and keeps a proper balance between the Spirit and my human understanding. God has been rather patient with me and I have tried him sorely. I still don't know why he is patient with me! Yet, his arms are always open.

One step at a time and all understanding will one day be yours.

[Craig Paxton]

I went to the Sundance Film Festival last night…following the movie the film director did a Q and A. Because the theme of the movie had focused on the conflict between reality and belief one of the questions asked the director was “What do you believe” I found his answer quite profound. He replied, “I don’t seek belief…I seek understanding” I think that this is where I am…I don’t seek belief in Mormonism, I seek to understand Mormonism.

While as a believer the church made perfect sense, I now struggle to make Mormonism believable…but I do think I’ve made it more understandable…but reaching that understandability came at a cost…it required that I conclude that the church was man-made.

(For me) the church is like a huge jig saw puzzle…with a million interlocking pieces…to be what it claims to be these pieces must fit snuggly together and for me they just don’t. While many of these pieces do fit together and make perfect sense when taken individually, when viewed as a whole…they don’t fit the puzzle. Other pieces of the puzzle either do not fit at all or seem to come from an entirely different puzzle box. And even some of those pieces that do make sense can’t seem to be fit into the whole. So while I find tiny sections of the church truth claims to be well “truthy”…when taken in their sum, none of it makes any sense anymore.

I believe that I have a good understanding of the apologetic augment’s that provide a supposed safe harbor for those who encounter difficulties …While I find many of them interesting…the degree of mental gymnastics and mind bending required to incorporate these arguments into a foundation upon which to build a belief structure, thus far exceeds my mental capacity to do so. The mental pain is just too great. For Mormonism to be what it claims…the world as I understand it to be would not work. It would cease to be. Up would be down, white would be black and south would be north. The only way that the world… as I understand it to be even work…is if Mormonism is not what it claims.

So why do I even bother…cuz the church still tugs at my heart strings….try as I might…it still tugs…

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I think seeing Moroni would be a completely different experience. I can't believe having doubt if I saw Moroni. That honestly is why I think Lamen and Lemuel are charicatures, not real people. Seeing an angel and having him spank you would pretty much change your life.

Some maybe; but not most of the unbelieving. Besides it is not that they did not believe at that moment, they were just afraid. Later they could just deny having seen him out of pride...which they possessed in abundance. I do not think it is any different than denying ever having ever felt the Holy Spirit, and chalking it up to an emotional feeling. Many saw Christ heal and do great miracles and still rejected him. With all due respect I think you are wrong in this manor. Many in Israel saw God and miracles and then rejected him.

[Darth_Bill]

>I do not think it is any different than denying ever having ever felt the Holy Spirit, and chalking it up to an emotional feeling.

Yep. And I know I'm not alone there. I know of a particular feeling and I attributed that to the Holy Ghost. Kind of scheduled my life around it to some extent...and then last night I felt it at an AC/DC concert and that kind of confirmed that it was an emotional thing....which is worse for me as I now haven't felt the Holy Ghost, I guess.

[Skylla]

We don't allow "Why I left the church" threads.

Skylla