Is Islam The Antichrist? Richardson'S Book Raises The Question...

[Bill Hamblin]

Christianity believes in the coming of the beast, the Antichrist, or Gog (whatever you want to call him) and a false prophet.

I see no reason to conflate the Beast of Revelation, the Antichrist (never mentioned in Revelation) and Gog. These types of conflations are based on pure speculation.

[Cold Steel]

Perhaps. But we know a great gentile force will attack Jerusalem with the goal of defeating her. Not just blowing her to smithereens, but capturing her. We also know through Ezekiel that the Lord had previously spoken about Gog and He, the Lord, actually addresses Gog as though he were present. We also know that the nations round about Israel will be able and willing advocates of the Beast, and Ezekiel mentions these nations, as discussed above.

Richardson admittedly believes he has a prophetic role to play in bringing Muslims to Christ. I don't find that disturbing because we LDS have been told that God works through others to bring about His purposes, and some of these are not members of His Church. Richardson does not call the people to arms for a resistance, but rather to introduce them to the Jesus of the New Testament. "Now my brethren, we see that God is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in; yea, he numbereth his people, and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth." --]Alma 26:37

President Hinckley, in one of the conferences before his death, said that radio and television can carry the Gospel into foreign lands. He strongly indicated that when he spoke through these mediums that it counted as bringing the Gospel message into countries and communities that were locked down to our missionaries.

We have a number of ways to bring the Gospel to Mulsims. One, of course, is through discretion. Let them develop an interest in what we say and have them invite us to share it. Another is to use audio-visual materials to introduce the Gospel: use the Internet or radio or television. Then we can take it to them door to door, which is very dangerous.

I'm not as quick to dismiss Richardson, who meets with Muslims face to face. As we try to create outreach programs of our own, we must do so short of sending the heads of missionaries back to their parents. And radical Muslims are quick to kill those who proselytize to other Muslims. Unlike the true prophets, who preach free agency and love, the false spirits of Islam use force. It doesn't bother me that the term "Antichrist" isn't used by John to identify the Beast. We know enough about the spirit of the Antichrist to know that Gog/the Beast certainly fits the mold. So I'm willing to call him the Antichrist.

The radical Shi'ites are ready to receive the Mahdi, whether they're correct or not about his coming. And they think that Jesus will accompany him and show him deferrence. They also believe that Jesus will appeal to the Christians and that he will correct error by telling them that he was never actually crucified, but taken up by God. He will perform great miracles and wonders, yet he will not take the glory to himself, but again will point the way to the Mahdi. To me, this sounds very much like the Beast and the False Prophet. The latter will do many miracles and wonders, yet will give the glory to the Beast.

Speculation, yes, but the Shi'ite expectations sound an awful lot like what John, Ezekiel and Zechariah have described.

Video_1_It's Supernatural

Richardson discusses some of his beliefs that Turkey will eventually be the seat

of power for the Muslim world. The host is a bit much, but take it for what it's worth.

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Edited January 22, 2012 by Cold Steel

[Bill Hamblin]

Speculation, yes, but the Shi'ite expectations sound an awful lot like what John, Ezekiel and Zechariah have described.

They really don't. The only reason they may appear to is that Richardson is cherry-picking his data on both the Mahdi and the Antichrist with wild abandon, and without regard to any historical context or change through time.

I should note, too, that this theory requires that God inspire Shi'ite scholars to invent a concept of the Mahdi which turns out to be precisely the opposite of the truth. Why would God possibly do that? If he didn't, how could they possibly come up with such an antitype?

But I'm not real interested in this topic, so I'll bow out.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Bill Hamblin

[zerinus]

Islam is not a monolithic group, rather it is seriously divided between the two major groups: Sunni and Shia. You do have radicals among the Sunni, but the Shia can be more radical in their hatred of the West.

The Sunnis are far more radical. Al-Qaeda is Sunni; the Taliban are Sunni; the radical elements emerging in Pakistan and elsewhere are mostly Sunni.

[zerinus]

We've got a mission in Indonesia, a majority Muslim country.

We also have a mission in Nigeria, which is a slight majority Muslim nation.

At any rate, the BOM seems to imply that the gospel must be taken to all the world before Israel.

We also had missionaries in Lebanon before the Civil War.

There was also a mission in Iran before the revolution (with proselytizing power, if I am not mistaken); but after the Islamic revolution it was closed down.

[Cold Steel]

They really don't. The only reason they may appear to is that Richardson is cherry-picking his data on both the Mahdi and the Antichrist with wild abandon, and without regard to any historical context or change through time.

I'm willing to grant that. But if Richardson is cherry picking his data with wild abadon, many of the Shi'ites are doing the same. Richardson really isn't inventing any of this stuff, nor is he getting it from his studies of Islam. He's getting them from Shi'ite friends. When I speak to my Shi'ite friends, they certainly don't see the Mahdi and Jesus as evil. They see them as forces for good, two holy men who will come to bring peace to the world and to straighten out false doctrine. Who could be against that?

I should note, too, that this theory requires that God inspire Shi'ite scholars to invent a concept of the Mahdi which turns out to be precisely the opposite of the truth. Why would God possibly do that? If he didn't, how could they possibly come up with such an antitype?

God didn't do that. If Islam is the Beast, and by "Beast" I mean that great gentile force that will come against Jerusalem in the last days. Ezekiel writes:

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee. Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Persia is Iran, Gomer is central Turkey, Togarmah is southeastern Turkey, Libya is Libya, Ethiopia (Cush) is Egypt. All these Islamic nations will follow Gog into "the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people," which is Israel. And the Lord addresses Gog as though he was reading this (and I have no doubt he will). So what would cause him to completely disregard the word of the Lord and rush to his own destruction? Well, it could be that he simply doesn't believe the holy writ, or that he believes in a polar opposite religion.

Now I realize why folks like Bill Hamblin and Dan Peterson wouldn't like this topic and I don't hold it a'gin 'em. They're scholars and this is speculation. But it's pretty good speculation, I think. The only difference between regular Shi'ite and radical Shi'ite sects is that radical Shi'ites are wholly up front about the darker aspects of the Mahdi. They, and Richardson, may be cherry picking from the traditions without regard to any historical context or change through time, but it's what the Shi'ites believe and all you have to do is ask them.

Professor Hamblin says "this theory requires that God inspire Shi'ite scholars to invent a concept of the Mahdi which turns out to be precisely the opposite of the truth. Why would God possibly do that?" Well, God wouldn't do that. If Richardson is correct about Islam being the Beast, I can think of only one other being, or entity, that would purposely invert the truth into falsehood. That being believes in raw force and despises the Jews to the point that he would like to wipe them from the face of the Earth.

The Sunnis are far more radical. Al-Qaeda is Sunni; the Taliban are Sunni; the radical elements emerging in Pakistan and elsewhere are mostly Sunni.

Yep. My point is that if a "false prophet" appeared that could perform great miracles like calling fire down from heaven, that you would see the unification of the various sects of Islam, even those who don't have the traditions of the Mahdi.

So I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but it's food for thought, and it is speculation, but pretty good speculation. If you approach this with the idea that Muhammad was a true prophet, or was led of God, you might have some problems; however, even if Muhammad was somehow called by God, it's clear now that a gross apostasy has occurred. Based on the calling of Muhammad at the cave at Hira, though, that calling doesn't sound like it came from the God I know.

[Bill Hamblin]

Professor Hamblin says "this theory requires that God inspire Shi'ite scholars to invent a concept of the Mahdi which turns out to be precisely the opposite of the truth. Why would God possibly do that?" Well, God wouldn't do that. If Richardson is correct about Islam being the Beast, I can think of only one other being, or entity, that would purposely invert the truth into falsehood. That being believes in raw force and despises the Jews to the point that he would like to wipe them from the face of the Earth.

That makes even less sense. Why would Satan inspire his followers to present ideas that would allow Christians to recognize his followers as the anti-Christ? It makes absolutely no sense.

If I am correct that Richardson is cherry-picking, then, in fact, Shi'ite ideas about the Mahdi don't parallel Christian ideas about the Anti-Christ. Which is precisely the point. It is a mirage. It's just like anti-Mormons claiming Joseph Smith is the Anti-Christ, or the Pope. Using Richardson's methodology, anyone can be equated with the Anti-Christ.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Bill Hamblin

[Daniel Peterson]

When we all know that it's actually Bill "Gog" Hamblin.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Daniel Peterson

[Bill Hamblin]

When we all know that it's actually Bill "Gog" Hamblin.

That's "Gag."

[frankenstein]

We all know the great whores and mark of the beast is capitalism, who largely can not buy, sale or trade with a "number" I.e. credit score and it is capitalism and the west for which the merchants who were made rich by capitalism and the will weep. George bush via shock and awe called done fire from the skies, Truman called down fire too.

See how easy it is to identify what the book of revelation is referring.

Oh and the scorpions mentioned are either A10 warthogs or hellicopters. Tough i don't know of females flying combat helos.

[LeSellers]

When we all know that it's actually Bill "Gog" Hamblin.

While I would not dare to disagree, I wonder who "Magog" might be. Does his face appear in your mirror, good doctor?

Lehi

[Bill Hamblin]

While I would not dare to disagree, I wonder who "Magog" might be. Does his face appear in your mirror, good doctor?

Lehi

It is true. I am Gag. But Dan is Mo-Gag ("More Gag") And Whore of Babylon is Lady Gagag.

[LeSellers]

It is true. I am Gag. But Dan is Mo-Gag ("More Gag") And Whore of Babylon is Lady Gagag.

I really wish I had a few more rep points to award. Thanks to whoever used one. (May I assume it was on my behalf?)

Lehi

Edited January 23, 2012 by LeSellers

[Cold Steel]

Well, we'll see as time passes. I do believe that we will witness the rise of the Antichrist in due time and that he'll bring an army down on Jerusalem. The term "Antichrist" I suppose can be applied to Gog, but if anyone wishes to discuss other theories I'd love to hear them. Who is he? Where will he come from?

• the dragon (Satan) gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority
  
• there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies
  
• power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
  
• it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
  
• he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle
  
• all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life
  

The other will also appear:

• I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth
  
• he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him
  
• he causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast
  
• he doeth great wonders...he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men
  
• he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast
  
• he proclaimed that the people should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
  
• he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed
  

This secondary prophet, called the "false prophet," points the way to the first. One of the huge problems Richardson has with his theory is that Muslim theology does not allow for the worship of an image or a man. He also views these beasts as having power over the entire earth, whereas we LDS believe "the earth" doesn't include the Western Hemisphere (if so, there's not one prophecy I'm aware of from our prophets). So who are the "saints" that are "overcome"? And what of the wound "by the sword" which the first beast suffered?

The nations that the beast brings against Jerusalem are those surrounding Israel today, and they're all Muslim nations. But is the "beast" of Revelation 13 the same one known as Gog in Ezekiel? Some of the LDS prophets said that Gog would come just before the millennial reign. Joseph Smith, however, said, "The battle of Gog and Magog will be after the millennium. The remnant of all the nations that fight against Jerusalem were commanded to go up to Jerusalem to worship in the millennium." Other prophets have said there will be two battles. Elder Orson Pratt said: "...a great multitude, will gather against the Jews before Jesus comes, and they will fill up the great valley of Armageddon, the great valley of Jehosaphat and all the surrounding valleys; they will be like a cloud covering the land. Horses and chariots and horsemen, a very great army, will gather up there to take a spoil. For you know when the Rothschilds and the great bankers among the Jewish nation shall return back to their own land to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, carrying their capital with them, it will almost ruin some of the nations, and the latter will go up against Jerusalem to take a spoil. And they will succeed in taking half the city captive; and when they are in the act of destroying that city, behold the Lord will come with all his Saints, and he shall stand his feet on the Mount of Olives, 'And in that day,' says the Prophet Zachariah 'shall the Lord go forth and fight against all those nations that have fought against Jerusalem, and their flesh shall consume away upon their bones, their eyes in their sockets.' This great calamity comes upon the Jewish nation in consequence of their unbelief in the true Messiah." (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 14:, p.353)

Elder Bruce McConkie wrote: "It is incident to this battle of Armageddon that the Supper of the Great God shall take place (Rev. 19:11-18), and it is the same battle described by Ezekiel as the war with Gog and Magog. (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.74) Thus, at the end of the Millennium, the battle will bear the same name. One wonders why Satan would do all these things if he knew the end result; yet he will.

So even if Islam is not the Antichrist, or Gog, or the Beast, one wonders how the nations that are now Islamic could be changed to accepting the worship of men and images. Will Islam be replaced or will it be subverted? Will the Mahdi be the Beast and will the "false prophet" also be the false Christ? I don't know, but it does seem to point to one thing, and that is that there will be quite a bit of time before all these can play out. The church still needs to go into Godforsaken places like China, North Korea and San Francisco -- and then it will go to the Jews. John writes: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

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