Lesson 2

[Mortal Man]

This Sunday’s Gospel Doctrine lesson will cover 1 Nephi 1-7. In order to prepare for class, it is helpful to review the historical background of these chapters.

In 599 BC, Nebuchadnezzar II invaded Judah and laid siege to Jerusalem. On March 16, 597, he conquered the city, took king Jeconiah prisoner and installed Zedekiah as a vassal king (Babylonian Chronicles, No 24 WA21946). He plundered the temple and the royal palace, cut up Solomon’s gold articles and “carried all Jerusalem into exile: all the officers and fighting men, and all the skilled workers and artisans—a total of ten thousand” such that “only the poorest people of the land were left.”

Nephi begins his story “in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah” as Nebuchadnezzar is hauling away his tribute, along with the king’s court, the prophet Ezekial and “ten thousand” prominent citizens and craftsmen off to Babylon.

With this background in mind, here are nine questions for Sunday’s class:

1. Were the families of Lehi, Ishmael, and “Laban and his fifty” among “the poorest people of the land”, such that Nebuchadnezzar didn’t notice them?

2. Why, after the city had already fallen, did “many prophets” show up and prophesy that the people must repent or the city would fall?

3. Why did the Lord need to tell Lehi that “many should be carried away captive into Babylon” when they were already gone?

4. Why did Lehi condemn the few remaining “poorest people of the land” for their wickedness and why did they “mock him” for saying the already fallen city must fall?

5. How did Nebuchadnezzar manage to miss Lehi’s “gold, and his silver, and his precious things” and “all manner of riches” along with the plates of brass, Laban’s sword, armor, treasury etc.?

6. Why didn’t the plates of brass, which contained “a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah,” mention anything about Nebuchadnezzar’s plundering and pillaging?

7. Why were Laman and Lemuel et al. “desirous to return unto the land of Jerusalem” if only a few poor people were left?

8. Why was Nephi grateful to be delivered “out of the hands of Laban” but apparently ambivalent about their delivery out of the hands of Nebuchadnezzar?

9. Why did Nephi boldly prophesy to his brethren that the already fallen Jerusalem should fall “at some future period”?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Mortal Man

[Chris Smith]

With regard to number 2, the prophets prophesied that the city would be destroyed, not merely that it would fall. The city was, indeed, destroyed at the end of the reign of Zedekiah.

[inquiringmind]

And with regard to numbers 4 and 9, didn't Jeremiah prophecy during the reign of king Zedekiah, and wasn't he rejected?

[TAO]

Mortal Man, http://lds.org/scrip...-16?lang=eng#14, for #3. Also http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/jer/52.15-16?lang=eng#14

# 1 and 5, perhaps he missed them, but that's just conjecture, I can't really say for sure.

# 6 How do you know they didn't?

#7 This was several years afterwards. I have a feelling people weren't quite as poor by then. And also, how many of the population did he carry away the first time percentage wise?

#8 He was pretty young when King N invaded, I think.

#9 It does... eleven years later.

Edited January 6, 2012 by TAO

[volgadon]

Been there, done that.

[bluebell]

What is the consensus about the timeline for the Jews being taken back to Babylon? Did it happen over a period of a few years? (I've read that Daniel, for example, wasn't taken until 607 BC or something like that).

Is it reasonable to believe that by the very first year of Zed.'s reign that there were only poor people left in Jerusalem?

[CV75]

With this background in mind, here are nine questions for Sunday’s class:

I think that everything in the 9 questions is part of a process more than part of a perfectly timed, coordinated sequence of completed events. It is also subject to the personal perceptions of the recorder. For example, Jerusalem did not fall until either you were captured, got out or apostatized. So it had already fallen for some, and not yet for others, explaining the continued efforts of the prophets.

Laban (and Lehi as well) may have bribed, and Lehi may have traveled, to prevent or avoid capture and relocation. Perhaps those who were anxious to return felt they would only pay tribute or bribe and be spared. Laban may also have been an ally or hired gun of the enemy.

[Mortal Man]

With regard to number 2, the prophets prophesied that the city would be destroyed, not merely that it would fall. The city was, indeed, destroyed at the end of the reign of Zedekiah.

I expected Bill Hamblin to point this out. There was certainly more burning, smashing and killing in 587, but why didn't they mention the pillaging and plundering that had just occurred or the massive prisoner taking that was going on all around them?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There was certainly more burning, smashing and killing in 587, but why didn't they mention the pillaging and plundering that had just occurred or the massive prisoner taking that was going on all around them?

Becuase the BoM is false.

[Mortal Man]

And with regard to numbers 4 and 9, didn't Jeremiah prophecy during the reign of king Zedekiah, and wasn't he rejected?

Jeremiah was part of the pro-Babylon party. That's why Nebuchadnezzar freed him from prison in 587.

[CV75]

Adding to my prior post, I think the questions raised have more to do with how the ancient Orientals related to time.

It seems they were thinking in terms of “effect then cause” rather than “cause then effect.” Their condition defines the reason. When they see that they are punished (effect), Jerusalem falls (cause). Things happened to them before they comprehended them, so things did not happen at all until they comprehended the effects of the events upon themselves.

So it seems they viewed time as well as place/space were things that occurred within the awareness of the experiences they had after the events occurred, making space and time the same thing, allowing them to relate to events in a way that may seem sequentially out of order to more linear-thinking people.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

That only the poor people were left is polemics of biblical writers. That is not how the Babylonians operated. you took key higher ups and raised them in your courts, so they could alter return and rule like other good Babylonians brought up in the Babylonian ways. Often times even the previous leaders (who didn't need to be made an example of) were left in place as vassal leaders. They didn't just go in and gut the place of money and capable people. they needed the land to be defensible and produce crops and industry. Babylonians only destroyed those who proved unfaithful (hence the later destruction of Jerusalem), or just enough to let their new vassals now whose boss. There were plenty of people who were left untouched in Babylonian conquests.

[Mortal Man]

Mortal Man, http://lds.org/scrip...-16?lang=eng#14, for #3. Also http://lds.org/scrip...-16?lang=eng#14

Far more people were carried away captive into Babylon in 597 than in 587; i.e., thousands as opposed to hundreds. Why would the prophets be more worried about a few hundred people a decade in the future than they were about several thousand people who'd just been taken prisoner? It seems an odd way to preach to the poor people who'd just been spared.

# 1 and 5, perhaps he missed them, but that's just conjecture, I can't really say for sure.

Nebuchadnezzar was especially interested in craftsmen. Was Nephi not a craftsman? Did he never make things like bows or swords or build things like ships or temples?

# 6 How do you know they didn't?

The plates of brass were the scriptures for the Nephites. They were passed down from one prophet to the next and yet no one ever mentions Nebuchadnezzar's invasion. If I described to you the events of 9/11 but never mentioned airplanes or the World Trade Center, would you not get suspicious?

#7 This was several years afterwards. I have a feelling people weren't quite as poor by then. And also, how many of the population did he carry away the first time percentage wise?

The numbers vary but the prisoner population was an order of magnitude greater in 597 than it was in 587.

#8 He was pretty young when King N invaded, I think.

He was old enough to cut Laban's head off and get married.

#9 It does... eleven years later.

Shouldn't he also have said something about king N's soldiers having just hauled away his friends and relatives?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Mortal Man

[Mortal Man]

Been there, done that.

Good for you volgadon; you're a man of broad experience. You might also add that the BoM is not a history or geography book and that none of this is important to your salvation.

[Mortal Man]

What is the consensus about the timeline for the Jews being taken back to Babylon? Did it happen over a period of a few years? (I've read that Daniel, for example, wasn't taken until 607 BC or something like that).

There were three deportations:

597 BC: 3,023 - 10,000 captives, depending on what source you believe.

587 BC: 832 captives

583 BC: 745 captives

Is it reasonable to believe that by the very first year of Zed.'s reign that there were only poor people left in Jerusalem?

There's probably some hyperbole there but there's no question it was by far the largest deportation. And Nephi et al. were exactly the sort of people Nebuchadnezzar took prisoner.

According to Robert Smith, I Nephi begins on or near 22 April 597 BC, a month after Jerusalem's surrender. There's simply no way Nephi could have missed that cataclysmic event. So why did he paint a picture of a perfectly normal Jerusalem at that time?

[Mortal Man]

I think that everything in the 9 questions is part of a process more than part of a perfectly timed, coordinated sequence of completed events. It is also subject to the personal perceptions of the recorder. For example, Jerusalem did not fall until either you were captured, got out or apostatized. So it had already fallen for some, and not yet for others, explaining the continued efforts of the prophets.

Laban (and Lehi as well) may have bribed, and Lehi may have traveled, to prevent or avoid capture and relocation. Perhaps those who were anxious to return felt they would only pay tribute or bribe and be spared. Laban may also have been an ally or hired gun of the enemy.

Suppose you kept an adult African elephant in your bedroom and suppose I claimed to have seen your bedroom in a vision. You ask me to describe the contents of your room and I list a bed, dresser and nightstand but make no mention of the elephant. Would you believe that I had really seen your bedroom?

[Mortal Man]

Becuase the BoM is false.

Come now Mola, we know that Jerusalem did in fact exist at the very time and place Nephi specifies. This constitutes a direct hit. Why are you being so cynical?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Mortal Man

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Come now Mola, we know that Jerusalem did in fact exist and the very time and place Nephi specifies. This constitutes a direct hit. Why are you being so cynical?

Lol, why not? You really think it constitutes a direct hit? I don't believe you believe that.

[Freedom]

Suppose you kept an adult African elephant in your bedroom and suppose I claimed to have seen your bedroom in a vision. You ask me to describe the contents of your room and I list a bed, dresser and nightstand but make no mention of the elephant. Would you believe that I had really seen your bedroom?

Lets say you are writing a history of how you came to own his house and you were trying to impress upon the reader all the virtues of the building so that they see your purchase as being very wise. Would you mention the elephant in the bedroom if you knew the previous owner would be taking it with them and cleaning any mess it left behind? If your read 1 Nephi more carefully, you sill see that it is written with a specific purpose. Historical data that you are referring to is not relevant to the message. It is not a history text, the details that are included serve specific purposes.

[TAO]

Far more people were carried away captive into Babylon in 597 than in 587; i.e., thousands as opposed to hundreds. Why would the prophets be more worried about a few hundred people a decade in the future than they were about several thousand people who'd just been taken prisoner? It seems an odd way to preach to the poor people who'd just been spared.

It was over 3000 the second time, according to Kings 25:19. Did you flip the dates?

Nebuchadnezzar was especially interested in craftsmen. Was Nephi not a craftsman? Did he never make things like bows or swords or build things like ships or temples?

Was it common knowledge how to make a basic hunting bow?. As for swords, which verse did he make one in, and would it be difficult? Ships and temples... he was instructed by the Lord how to do.

The plates of brass were the scriptures for the Nephites. They were passed down from one prophet to the next and yet no one ever mentions Nebuchadnezzar's invasion. If I described to you the events of 9/11 but never mentioned airplanes or the World Trade Center, would you not get suspicious?

You know this happened in the first year of Zedekiah, right? So I'm not sure that they were in the Brass Plates yet (commencement means beginning).

And no... it's not like that. It is more like having to describe the history of the American continent and it's people from the moment it was discovered by Europeans, and mentioning 9/11 and the World Trade Center, but not talking about the airplanes.

It's not suprising it is left out consideirng how much they have to cover, and also considering many parts were written to be spiritual, and also because it was abridged, so perhaps it got left out.

The numbers vary but the prisoner population was an order of magnitude greater in 597 than it was in 587.

3000 in 587 BC, how much in 597?

He was old enough to cut Laban's head off and get married.

How old is that?

Shouldn't he also have said something about king N's soldiers having just hauled away his friends and relatives?

How many people lived in Jerusalem at the time? I got the impression that not that many people were taken away.

Edited January 6, 2012 by TAO

[Mortal Man]

It is not a history text,

I'm heartened to see you took my advice to volgadon.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm heartened to see you took my advice to volgadon.

Apparenlty we are not the only one's that think it is not a history book. But, you already knew this.

[CV75]

Suppose you kept an adult African elephant in your bedroom and suppose I claimed to have seen your bedroom in a vision. You ask me to describe the contents of your room and I list a bed, dresser and nightstand but make no mention of the elephant. Would you believe that I had really seen your bedroom?

This isn’t the point at all, since for me, this isn't about Joseph Smith having a vision that conflicts with certain Bible details.

See post #11 and study up on the ancient Hebrew conceptualization of time to see how this impacts an uninitiated modern Westerner’s perception of the events as experienced and then recorded by Nephi. This offers a perspective to those that accept the Book of Mormon as true and might wonder how or why their perception of history differs from Nephi's.

[Freedom]

I'm heartened to see you took my advice to volgadon.

It is condescending and demeaning comments like this that makes it difficult to take any arguments you present seriously.

[volgadon]

Good for you volgadon; you're a man of broad experience. You might also add that the BoM is not a history or geography book and that none of this is important to your salvation.

I'll add this as well. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/52547-conquest-of-jerusalem-597-bce/