Pros And Cons Of Chruch Schools

[Judd]

As mentioned before, I think it's a good opportunity for singles from areas that don't have much YSA to be able to be able to make more "connections". If the tuition is good then that's a plus. Being primarily an undergraduate institution, a lot of good research opportunities as available to undergraduate students that I don't feel are as readily available other places (even if the departments aren't as "prestigious" as some others). Some cons are that there is actually quite a bit of playing Devil's advocate from some of the faculty, almost in an insulting manner, so that they may teach "the naive". BYU is not the bastion of conservative thought that everyone makes it out to be. There is a caricature of the types of people at are at BYU that oppress, use unrighteous dominion, bring tyranny, and look down upon those "less righteous". It's fascinating that I never really encountered these individuals during my time at BYU, but sure heard a lot of people speak of the oppression they received at their hands and lived in fear of them. Because of this mythical creature on the loose on campus, the tendency is to fight hard against him and overcompensate by attacking the supposed stereotype. That gets old, but more than likely anyone who goes there probably won't have my opinion.

[Messenger]

Is it time for BYU to expand? Perhaps a campus in every state?

Im pretty sure this was the whole idea from the beginning, but as economics changed, so did the original plan. The Portland Temple site and surrounding area was all owned by the church for the eventual building of a school. My understanding from the locals when I lived there in Lake Oswego, that the plans changed at the church HQ level. Of course there are problems with the so called "church schools" because they are trying to function in a telestial world. And, just like everything else, when you compromise too much, you end up falling short of your expectations.

1) Positive things about current church schools (BYU Idaho, Hawaii, Provo and a smattering of other ones):

• There are other studends that are LDS with LDS Standards. Growing up when there was one other LDS person in my class in High School, that was a real nice thing to experience at BYU.
  
• The religion classes were quite good. I thought they were great and an amazing step ahead from institute classes in other colleges.
  

2) Negative things about current church schools (BYU Idaho, Hawaii, Provo and a smattering of other ones):

• There's not enough room for everyone that wants to attend. My first year at BYU in '86 was packed with students. I didnt have any trouble getting into BYU, but I know thats not the case today. So, the people that cant get in dont get a church subsidized education like the ones that to get in? Is that the right message to send?
  
• Forget it if you have a disability. I got 'A's' and 'B's' in every class except for mathmatics which was impossible for my ADHD. After two years attending, I couldnt move forward so I dropped out. I guess my point is that its not for everyone, and definately not for those with anykind of a disability. In a way, its a lot like missions are today, if you have a disability, mission presidents dont want to have to deal with you, its the same at LDS schools. Again, I'm not sure thats the right message, but perhaps a result of the world we live in.
  
• College Deans and Proffessors at Church Schools: Church Leaders they are NOT! But I think they should be. I've attended state schools in Oregon, Community Colleges and yes BYU. And, to be honest, I've never seen more badly behaving people than professors at BYU's non-religion departments. And, I have to ask myself why and I suppose it has to do with the fact that they cant be fired and have reached that point to where all thier sense of morals fly out the window.
  

[Calm]

I suppose it has to do with the fact that they cant be fired and have reached that point to where all thier sense of morals fly out the window.

Not true. BYU LDS profs have to be temple recommend holding.....at least that is what my memory says. NonLDS profs have to agree to live by certain LDS standards.

And my experience is that BYU holds their professors to these standards.

See for example: https://docs.google....Che2DgfYUFCDx3g

Edited January 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[Messenger]

Not true. BYU LDS profs have to be temple recommend holding.....at least that is what my memory says. NonLDS profs have to agree to live by certain LDS standards.

And my experience is that BYU holds their professors to these standards.

See for example: https://docs.google....Che2DgfYUFCDx3g

You can say its not true, but it doesnt mean you are right Cal ! I'm just speaking from direct experience, and those experiences I didnt have in state or community colleges. A temple recommend is a nice thing to have, but for some people it really doesnt mean anything. I know this for a fact because I have spoken with Stake Presidents about professors at BYU-I who eventually got caught. But there are many times when actions we take are not considered moral, but may not specifically be one of the questions on a Temple recommend. When I say morals, I'm not specifically talking about the law of chastity for example. Im talking about the ten commandents. For example, thou shalt not steal, love your neighbor as yourself, love God. When I say morals I'm talking right vs wrong guided by the Holy Ghost.

Tell me Cal, how many people do you see at church, or at church college with disabilities? Why this thread is skewed to the positive is because there isnt anybody else posting on here with disabilities that has also attended a church school and compared it with state and community schools.

Just a little food for thought before everyone gets full of themselves about BYU. I could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. I've seen and experienced an unprovoked choke hold on a student that simply wanted to re-take a test. People do a lot of dumb things when they are under pressure - BYU professors are no exception, even when they are reported, many people simply look away because they are part of the glorious athletic football program. Its the worldly part of BYU that all of us have a lot of work to do to correct. Afterall, we arent here to brag about ourselves, we are here to improve.

Why are you here Cal?

[Calm]

FWIW though what it has to do with the thread topic.....

There are about 5 people with visible significant physical disabilities at my current ward. I've been in wards that have had significantly more and some less. In my last ward I knew of three families that had significant problems with ADHD, another one with adopted children dealing with fetal alcohol syndrome, some cases of schizophrenia and bipolar manic disorder, three people confined to wheelchairs that came to church, others on oxygen, others confined to home due to health issues. I don't know the issues in this ward as well because I cannot attend as much due to my own disability. The ward I spent most of my time in growing up had a girl my age that was deaf, several other youth that were disabled, a young man who was blind and again several individuals with mental health issues.

I am not saying that in every case those with disabilities are getting their needs met. We did not have an interpreter in my young women's class for example even though we had a set of braille scriptures available. She had to struggle with reading lips and some of us who tried to learn basic sign language.

I was not responding in any way to the claims of disability accommodation at church schools. I have no information on that save my own experience back in the late 70s where several of my friends who were disabled attended and told me they enjoyed their time there, though I read some reports by other students of the difficulty of meeting the same standards as nondisabled, sometimes they were successful, sometimes not. It could be very different these days, I have no clue.

I am certain that there are many BYU professors that have morality issues, even if they are required to have temple recommends. Your claim was that they couldn't be fired because of it.

they cant be fired

That is what I was saying was not true, the only thing I was saying was not true. BYU professors can be fired for worthiness issues according to their contract with the school. I was solely addressing that claim with the "not true", BYU professors can and have been fired due to worthiness issues though undoubtedly not all those that deserve such experienced termination.

I have no clue what percentage of those who deserve to be fired get fired. I was making no claim toward that, only that there is a mechanism in place to fire professors if the need arises and it has been invoked from time to time when it was necessary to my knowledge....whether that mechanism is invoked or not most of the time or little of the time or somewhere between when it should be invoked, I have no knowledge save in one specific case where it was for morality reasons and in a couple of others where it was invoked for citizenship as described in the article I linked to. I don't listen to or seek after gossip about professors or students no matter what university or college they teach at. The only reason I know in the one morality case was because of a personal friendship (and thankfully it turned out very positive in the end for all involved). This is what I was referring to when I said in my experience BYU held their professors to that standard or undertook action when it was necessary, I thought but did not write the addition "though sometimes it was slow in doing so".

My husband is a professor at UVU, I will take that school any day over BYU (and any other I am familiar with) just for the attitude among the profs I have experienced at faculty get togethers, though not all are ones I like to associate with. I do not make it a habit to assume that all LDS need to attend BYU, the only reason I attended was because my family could not afford the school I wanted to go to (Stanford) and while I was able to get scholarships at BYU, I was too shy and timid to apply for them at that school.

You need to not assume so much when reading others' posts about what they are saying and perhaps give the benefit of the doubt and ask for clarification before assuming the worse. If I am contradicting someone's comments, I tend to quote the specific part that I am contradicting (though sometimes because I quote an entire sentence it may not be specific enough) and it would be a mistake to assume that I am contradicting everything in the posts rather than that specific section. I can understand misunderstanding my point about morality and professors, but I said nothing in regards to disability issues.

Edited January 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[Messenger]

1) 10 commandents - that was clarified already. That was my point, not sure why you are driving this.

2) UVU - over BYU? - Yes, but I've heard issues with them from an ADD friend that is attending now.

MY point is, we tend to protect WAY TOO MANY People that work for BYU because everyone thinks its the Lords school. I really dont want to have another Virginia Tech going on or something else like it. There were 4 phys ed employees of BYU that were watching me when the Dean of the Phys Ed department tried a choke hold on me back in 1987 ..... Do you think even one reported anything? No, not one. Is that the way it should be at the LORDS SCHOOL? G.A's are welcome to contact me, I'm not looking to sue, just want that sort of thing to stop. They can look up the police report that was filed with on-campus police, see my testimony and the the people on Standards who listened to me about what happened. I'm sure they have a report as well.

All I can say is THANK GOD I was able to slip out from under his sleeper hold. All that because I simply wanted to re-take a test.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Messenger

[volgadon]

Forget it if you have a disability. I got 'A's' and 'B's' in every class except for mathmatics which was impossible for my ADHD. After two years attending, I couldnt move forward so I dropped out. I guess my point is that its not for everyone, and definately not for those with anykind of a disability. In a way, its a lot like missions are today, if you have a disability, mission presidents dont want to have to deal with you, its the same at LDS schools. Again, I'm not sure thats the right message, but perhaps a result of the world we live in.

I've nointerest in attending BYU, but at least in my experience your rant against mission presidents is baloney. I have ADHD and rather severe discalculia and disgraphia, yet there was no discrimination against me- or unwillingness to help- by anyone in the MTC, or both my mission presidents. This included my Russian president. There is a significant lack of awareness of learning disabilities in Russia BTW.

[Calm]

2) UVU - over BYU? - Yes, but I've heard issues with them from an ADD friend that is attending now.

As someone who does not believe in perfection in human beings, I am certain there are some professors who are not that good at working with people with different needs then they are used to. Some people get better with experience, some don't. Ever consider that the professors who have a hard time working with ADD students may have their own form of disability and should be considered with the same allowances and attempted to work with to the best of their limits as someone with ADD?

MY point is, we tend to protect WAY TOO MANY People that work for BYU because everyone thinks its the Lords school.

I certainly am not trying to do that. Not sure who you think is in this thread, but it's been awhile since I've read the other posts and I am not interested enough to reread them at this point so perhaps I am missing something.

BYU has its good points and its bad points, works for some, not so good for others. It is not perfect and I am grateful my husband doesn't work there.....if only because he has a beautiful beard and hates wearing a tie.

Edited January 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[katherine the great]

Pro: BYU is cheaper than state college. BYUI is WAY cheaper than state college.

Con: The campus police are consistently the most ridiculous people I've ever had the displeasure of being in contact with.

[Messenger]

I've nointerest in attending BYU, but at least in my experience your rant against mission presidents is baloney. I have ADHD and rather severe discalculia and disgraphia, yet there was no discrimination against me- or unwillingness to help- by anyone in the MTC, or both my mission presidents. This included my Russian president. There is a significant lack of awareness of learning disabilities in Russia BTW.

I disagree about this. I didnt know I had ADHD when I went on my mission, so the result was pretty bad. Now looking back, if I knew I had ADHD, they would have relaxed thier pressure on me memorizing all the discussions in 1 month. Church policy has changed with regard to people with disabilities serviing missions over the last 20 years. Basically, if you are 'unable' to serve, then you dont. The stake president decides this now. I'd be happy to point out that information on this if you wish.

Thanks for calling my post a rant. If you dont like my posts, may I suggest you set your ignore feature on. I've had four mission presidents in 18 months. 2 of the 4 were not a pleasant experience, One of them was downright silly. Im glad I escaped his mission! But, he did get better over the years.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Messenger

[Messenger]

As someone who does not believe in perfection in human beings, I am certain there are some professors who are not that good at working with people with different needs then they are used to. Some people get better with experience, some don't. Ever consider that the professors who have a hard time working with ADD students may have their own form of disability and should be considered with the same allowances and attempted to work with to the best of their limits as someone with ADD?

Its unlikely that a professor that has ADHD, wouldnt know how to deal with a student that has ADHD or ADD. Allowances? Im not sure what your point is. Perhaps you can define what you mean by allowances. Before giving advice on ADHD and how two people with ADHD should interact, perhaps it might be best for you to study a little about what ADHD means, and the symptoms of it. May I suggest study on Hyperfocus first. Then once you understand that, you'll understand that when the professor has a hyperfocus moment, its not the student that gives him the allowance, its the proffessors boss who does, by allowing the professor to leave his class in that moment and having someone fill in for him. You have to understand one thing ..... its not a choice, You suggest that a student with ADHD, who is having symptoms of ADHD (Hyperfocus), make a mental decision to allow someone else with ADHD to have thier hyperfocus moment? This logic is not medically based because you do not understand that the symptoms do not allow for that kind of mental exersize. Please, please .... if you work for a school, get educated on ADHD. But, also be aware, that there isnt very many people who understand how to deal with someone else who has ADHD. Its pretty a pretty normal response to incorrectly tell somone how they should act when they have it. My dad used to yell at me and say. "GDI! JUST THINK OF WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY BEFORE YOU SAY IT!" If you think about it, thats pretty silly! In a hyperfocus moment, the last thing you'd want to do is yell at someone that is having it. That pretty much promises that the Hyperfocus moment will last double or tripple the amount of time to naturally overcome it. A lot of professors at BYU yell at people.

When an ADHD person is hyperfocused, they need to be allowed to remove themselves from the situation where it started in. If you dont care to study up on this, let me give the laymans version. This hyperfocus is a thought seizure. Mental decisions are at the most basic level. The only way to overcome this seizure, is to remove yourself from the place it started and let it pass. The only allowances from a student is to allow themselves to be taught by someone else. I sense an ah-ha moment for you. Having a mental disability is very similar to a physical disability. Only with ADHD, it comes and goes, and its all mental. Think of it as a sort of an intermittant M.S. for the mind.

Like I said, its sad, I had a lot more positive experienced in regular classes at Oregon State and two other community colleges (one of which I got my degree) than BYU. To me that says something. It says that even after serving a mission, paying titheing, and being active, that they didnt want to deal with problems of anykind. Is it always a privelege to attend BYU? As a student, I often heard that. Funny, I always thought service to others in our callings is what makes us all great. I didnt experience very much compassion of anykind at BYU, in fact quite the opposite. That being said, I have a very good friend who says BYU-I does make some allowances now for ADHD students. They allow them more time to take tests, some are even unlimited in time. He is encouraging me to consider BYU-I to finish my degree. To be frank, im not sure I can overcome the verbal and physical abuse I endured while at BYU Provo. I suppose there will be a point where i can.

BYU has its good points and its bad points, works for some, not so good for others.

That's my point as well. One thing, your husband has a beard he could shave anyday. I can not shave off my ADHD.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Messenger

[Calm]

I am not talking about a professor with ADHD. There are more disabilities in the world than ADHD or learning disabilities.

If we are wise and kind enough to try and accommodate for one form of disability, it would seem to me that it would be wise and kind to accommodate for as many forms of disability as possible whether they exist in a student or teacher.

Since I was not talking about ADHD, I am not going to response to the part of the comment that is based on that interpretation of my post, except to say I am aware of the disorder having known and taught a number of individuals with it and I know what hyperfocus is and how it can affect interaction and relationships.

[Grundelwalken]

• Forget it if you have a disability. I got 'A's' and 'B's' in every class except for mathmatics which was impossible for my ADHD. After two years attending, I couldnt move forward so I dropped out. I guess my point is that its not for everyone, and definately not for those with anykind of a disability. In a way, its a lot like missions are today, if you have a disability, mission presidents dont want to have to deal with you, its the same at LDS schools. Again, I'm not sure thats the right message, but perhaps a result of the world we live in.
  
• College Deans and Proffessors at Church Schools: Church Leaders they are NOT! But I think they should be. I've attended state schools in Oregon, Community Colleges and yes BYU. And, to be honest, I've never seen more badly behaving people than professors at BYU's non-religion departments. And, I have to ask myself why and I suppose it has to do with the fact that they cant be fired and have reached that point to where all thier sense of morals fly out the window.
  

I have two sons who suffer from several disabilities (ADHD, Anxiety, depression, etc.) and both were treated very well by the University AND their professors. They also both served successful missions and were helped immensely by various Presidents, assistants, and leaders. In my opinion (and it is obviously not the same as yours), the Church and Church Schools have made great strides in helping those who struggle with the physical, mental and emotional symptoms we have discovered in these latter-days.

As to professors, those I know and have studied under plus those my children have worked with have, for the most part, been folk of good character. There are always oddballs who make things difficult but they are the exception not the rule. MW

Edited January 4, 2012 by Grundelwalken

[Messenger]

I have two sons who suffer from several disabilities (ADHD, Anxiety, depression, etc.) and both were treated very well by the University AND their professors. They also both served successful missions and were helped immensely by various Presidents, assistants, and leaders. In my opinion (and it is obviously not the same as yours), the Church and Church Schools have made great strides in helping those who struggle with the physical, mental and emotional symptoms we have discovered in these latter-days.

As to professors, those I know and have studied under plus those my children have worked with have, for the most part, been folk of good character. There are always oddballs who make things difficult but they are the exception not the rule. MW

I didnt find out about mine until 6 months ago. Im glad there are some success stories out there.

[volgadon]

I didnt find out about mine until 6 months ago. Im glad there are some success stories out there.

Wait, if you didn't find out until 6 months ago then why are you slamming people from way back in the 80s?

[Messenger]

Wait, if you didn't find out until 6 months ago then why are you slamming people from way back in the 80s?

The thread is about good things and bad things about church schools. Speaking from experience, in a much less enlightened time, and still perhaps relatively dim, as to what the good and bad things are about BYU. I really cant think of a good excuse for a temple recommend holder to have done those things, and protected by other temple recommend holders, when those things didnt happen in other schools of the state during the same time. My point to all of this is that Church Schools are not church, and perhaps the reason why they are not. That is a valid response to the OP. Perhaps we tend to protect those and even defend those who we believe in, even when they do things that are contrary to both legal and concepts of right and wrong.

I think its been a very eye-opening thread. Don't you think?

One thing I have been thinking about all day is a concept that man cannot serve both God and Mammon. It simply cant be done. When we try, we lose our inspiration and the things that make us great. Have our LDS Schools, at least some of them, become so tied to the world with our acedemics matching, Football winning, and all the other things that go along with it, that our schools arent what they really could be? Afterall, ADHD was discovered way back in 1798, with considerable acceptance 50 years ago. You would think with all the potential inspiration available as well as science that BYU would have had that down. But perhaps, when a school is overflowing in students it affects decisions. Perhaps its a difficult thing to live in the world, but not be of the world. Then again, maybe its not as hard as we think. I wonder if the reason why BYU is a little bit more accepting now of disabilities, then it used to be, is more legal than moral motiviation.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Messenger

[volgadon]

I disagree about this. I didnt know I had ADHD when I went on my mission, so the result was pretty bad. Now looking back, if I knew I had ADHD, they would have relaxed thier pressure on me memorizing all the discussions in 1 month. Church policy has changed with regard to people with disabilities serviing missions over the last 20 years. Basically, if you are 'unable' to serve, then you dont. The stake president decides this now. I'd be happy to point out that information on this if you wish.

Thanks for calling my post a rant. If you dont like my posts, may I suggest you set your ignore feature on. I've had four mission presidents in 18 months. 2 of the 4 were not a pleasant experience, One of them was downright silly. Im glad I escaped his mission! But, he did get better over the years.

Had I wanted to ignore someone I certainly wouldn't need a button for it. As it is, I have no intention of ignoring your post. I strongly disagree with the point you seem to be making, so I'm going to challenge it.

I'm sure it sucked serving a mission in the days of memorised discussions without knowing you had ADHD. Nobody is seeking to minimise your bad experiences.

I'm not sure though how bad experiences with 2 out of 4 mission presidents in the 1980s- when you yourself didn't know you had ADHD- translates into a blanket statement on today's mission presidents' unwillingness to help.

I served a mission from 2005-2007. As I've already mentioned, I too have ADHD, and several other learning disabilities. The MTC and my mission presidents were perfectly helpful.

[katherine the great]

I'm pretty sure this is the social hall...

[Messenger]

Had I wanted to ignore someone I certainly wouldn't need a button for it. As it is, I have no intention of ignoring your post. I strongly disagree with the point you seem to be making, so I'm going to challenge it.

I'm sure it sucked serving a mission in the days of memorised discussions without knowing you had ADHD. Nobody is seeking to minimise your bad experiences.

I'm not sure though how bad experiences with 2 out of 4 mission presidents in the 1980s- when you yourself didn't know you had ADHD- translates into a blanket statement on today's mission presidents' unwillingness to help.

I served a mission from 2005-2007. As I've already mentioned, I too have ADHD, and several other learning disabilities. The MTC and my mission presidents were perfectly helpful.

I will say that businesses, missions, & schools, in a generic sense, have to do more work to accommodate those that have disabilities and also help recognize the symptoms. That would also be true with B.Y.U. I have worked in the offices of two missions and I will tell you there are difficulties working with missionaries that have 'problems'. There is a lot to consider including what companions they choose for them. It limits the mission president’s choices on where they go, and who they can be with. Unless a disability is known, it’s not accommodated most of the time. If it is known, some may not even be allowed to go on a mission. For those like me, who were not diagnosed with a disability, missions aren’t trained to discover those who have the symptoms of a disability. When in a foreign land, there are few facilities to help them discover any issues like this. Once it is known, then there are legal motivations in the USA for people to deal with, for example the accommodations. It used to be that the church allowed people with many physical disabilities to go on a mission, such as someone being in a wheelchair. There are many more restrictions now. Leaders will tell you that Handbook 1, will have some very specific stipulations in regard to that subject. I don’t wish to share those here. When I developed an issue with my left knee on my mission, the medical evaluation was that I needed physical therapy at first. My mission president really frowned on that, because it required that I go to a health club three times a week and use specific exercises to build muscle around the supporting knee. I decided to do what my doctor said, and there were all sorts of issues that cropped up as a result. I eventually had to stop going due to pressure from my Mission President, and my knee got worse. As a result, I wasn’t able to even walk without severe pain after 4 months. I had surgery two months later, but not after being accused of wanting to go home for some other reason. Further, my letters from home were read by the mission president as well before I got them, which they told me was legal in Australia. After my surgery, and reassignment to another mission, he wrote letters of his suspected reasons why I left my mission to my new mission president here in the states. I was a secretary in my new mission office. I saw the letter, and handed it to my mission president. He read it, handed it back to me and told me if there were any more letters from him to destroy them. So, yes, my 3rd mission president was incredible, and very supportive. But even then, while I was recovering from surgery in the office, he asked me to stop my physical therapy because he thought my chest was getting too big *LOL*. I wasn’t there to work out my chest, nor did I. My knee did eventually heal up; it just took a lot longer without therapy. I had a limp for about 6 months. That being said, the state side mission president was absolutely the best mission president I have ever had. He never put me down, gave me extra miles on the car, and even had one on one interviews with him. He even took me to a military air force base with him. President was a retired 4 star general in the Air Force, and he wore his uniform when we went on the base. It was an amazing experience; One that I will never forget.

I am so grateful that you have felt supported in your mission. But I can tell you today, while my bishop supports me in my ADHD, knowing that I have it, he still called me to the 2nd assistant in my high priest group leadership which I think is very good. That hasn’t been without social challenges though. My first High Priest group leader, knowing that I had A.D.H.D, never invited me to his meetings with the others in the group. I didn’t complain, but as a set apart member I should have been included. He was released only after two months.

So, while there is progress, I am making lemonade out of the lemons life has handed me. I am now very involved with ADHD awareness. For the first time the church has a website specifically for people with disabilities and people who deal with people that have disabilities. ADHD is not mentioned specifically in there yet. This month, I am told that I will be the featured in the Photographer Spotlight on the church website. It will be interesting to see if they publish my comments on having ADHD that I submitted. If they do, it will be a huge step forward for all of us that have ADHD. If not, they will bury it, because I have admitted that I have ADHD.

In the end, my hope is that it will give greater acceptance and accommodation to those LDS members that have it, and making it easier to attend church schools, have church callings, and work for the church and other LDS businesses. There are still significant barriers, and I maintain that those barriers are still more difficult than in state run schools. And I still bring up instances from the past to so that we can do better in the future. The reason why I have gone out on a limb and published my ADHD, is because the Lord wants me to. I have no idea where this road will lead, I only know that I have been asked to travel it. And while I have taken many hits, insults, and even physical harm over my condition, I am still here.

[volgadon]

Unless a disability is known, it’s not accommodated most of the time.

How do you accommodate the unkown?

[volgadon]

It will be interesting to see if they publish my comments on having ADHD that I submitted. If they do, it will be a huge step forward for all of us that have ADHD. If not, they will bury it, because I have admitted that I have ADHD.

I'm sorry, but these martyrdom comments really make it seem like you are accusing the church of a deliberate anti-ADHD policy, which is baloney.

[Calm]

The Church is not a government agency or a business, it should not be required to enforce certain behaviours but rather it should assume the role as teaching good behaviours. I don't see the Church as ignoring disabilities, even though it takes time to affect members but members make their own choices in how they respond as well. And considering how not all members learn even some of the basic spiritual lessons or abide by various worthiness and moral teachings, it should not be surprising that some refuse to learn how to deal with disabilities or take longer to learn then we would like.

Just a few evidences of the Church's official attitude:

http://lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4854-1,00.html and http://lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,5727-1,00.html

http://www.providentliving.lds.org/ses/emotionalhealth/0,12283,2130-1---102,00.html

http://www.providentliving.lds.org/ses/emotionalhealth/links/0,12340,2131-1,00.html

http://lds.org/ensign/1990/04/the-hidden-handicap?lang=eng

[Messenger]

How do you accommodate the unkown?

How did you discover you had ADHD? And who discovered it …church school or public school or someone else? The church and church schools have counselors, both of which I saw. You would think church schools and its councilors would be especially attuned to the symptoms of someone with ADHD that is struggling. As I mentioned already, this is one of the areas I think we can improve on. So discovery is part of the problem. But certainly, using the spirit also helps, that’s what i do when I home teach. Further, over-reacting to ADHD symptoms, known or not, is not the best way to handle that situation. So, how do you discover the unknown? By being educated so that you can discover it. That means that councilors, doctors, and yes, even college teachers, learn about out it so that can help those discover it.

Right now, statistics show that Adult ADHD is very under-diagnosed. Here is an interesting article on this ….

Source: WebMD

“ADHD afflicts about 3% to 5% of school-age children; in 30% to 60% of them, the disorder will persist into adulthood. Overall, more than four in 100 U.S. adults have the disorder, according to McGough. So what's wrong with the current criteria?

For starters, they state that patients should shows signs of hyperactivity, impulsivity, or inattentive behavior before age 7, he says.

"That's extremely impractical and not based on clinical evidence. Research suggests that the age of onset should be changed to age 16 or 18 years, or abandoned entirely," McGough says.

Also, many symptoms used to diagnose the disease don't apply to adults, he says. For example, one hallmark symptom is "running and climbing incessantly. For adults, better criteria might be frequently driving too fast or having trouble making appointments," he says.

Temple University's David Baron, DO, chairman of the committee that chose which studies to highlight at the meeting, says many adults -- and their doctors -- don't realize they have ADHD.

"Many other psychiatric disorders such as anxiety and depression come and go, but ADHD is more of a constant," he tells WebMD. "Because of that, people don't label it. Or they dismiss it. They say, 'Oh, I've been this way since the second grade.'"

"I think adult ADHD is underdiagnosed," he says.

Baron says that anyone who suffers from symptoms of ADHD should be checked out by a health care professional with training in the field.

The good news: Once the diagnosis is made, the same drugs used to treat children with ADHD are very effective in adults, he says.

"The drug therapies available now will not just improve symptoms, but also quality of life," Baron says.”

[Messenger]

I'm sorry, but these martyrdom comments really make it seem like you are accusing the church of a deliberate anti-ADHD policy, which is baloney.

That’s not what I am saying at all. I’m saying that it’s a paradigm shift for many people (including church members) to include those with disabilities. I point out that while government and state agencies are making progress in accepting, discovering, and making accommodations for those with ADHD, in my opinion the Church is lagging behind those other agencies. I would say it’s not deliberate at all, just saying it exists. There are many people that think ADHD isn’t real especially in adults. And I think its possible that they simply brush it off as something else, but not ADHD. Further, I think is harder for people to accept and blame a mental disorder that causes these symptoms: being late for appointments, being sensitive to criticism, over-reacting to situations, and instead label them as a bad person, instead of realizing it’s directly tied to a mental disability. Knowing that I have ADHD, I realize that I often over-react to criticism, just as you have done here in this forum. I don’t think you are a bad person, but I understand it is your ADHD and I accept that. Therefore, I have learned, even with my ADHD, to wait and not immediately react to your posts. That’s not an easy task for me, especially since I've only discovered it 6 months ago. As far as specifically being Anti-ADHD, I never said that either. But I did say that the church does limit specific disabilities for missions as mentioned in handbook 1. I, having a disability have compassion on those with other disabilities and would like more people that are excluded from missions now to be included in them.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Messenger

[Messenger]

For those curious onlookers that want more information about ADHD, here are a couple of great resources ....

1) Adult ADHD Symptoms. link to helpguide.org Not a bad list of symptoms that we deal with.

2) On-line ADHD Test. Link to PSYCH Central. This is no substitute for a real professional, but its a great way to put you on the path of self-discovery.

Here is a great video on Adult ADD/ADHD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lSR8Y1E9m4

Wow, thats a great feeling! Education is the key. Right here. right now.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Messenger