Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 I have been thinking about something lately about this whole debate about faith versus works- how salvation is obtained and it dawned on me that in LDS doctrine we actually do teach a salvation without works model. We teach that one can be saved from hell in the telestial glory without works. This basically equates to "salvation without works". Now before one jumps to conclusions we must actually define what "works" means in salvation terminology. Some may think "works" may merely mean "bowing the knee", but in truthfulness "works" actually refers to "obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel" and we know the "first" laws and ordiances of the gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Basically- those are the first "works" spoken of in salvation terms. Here is the scripture which defines this slavation concept of "works"-8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the apower of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bbind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the cordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 128:8)But, we do have within our doctrine a salvation from hell without these works manifest- that of the telestial glory. We are taught that telestial salvation is obtained only through suffering for our own sins and then aknowledgeing Christ by bowing the knee. But, there are no "works" in this model. In essence, at least a portion of our doctrinal "heaven" can house individuals who manifest no "works" and be justified and appointed to "heaven" on "faith without works" alone!So I ask- Are we deceiving ourselves and other religions when we teach that our doctrine doesn't teach a "salvation without works" model when in fact we do have such a model within our doctrinal framework?
Rivers Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 I have been thinking about something lately about this whole debate about faith versus works- how salvation is obtained and it dawned on me that in LDS doctrine we actually do teach a salvation without works model. We teach that one can be saved from hell in the telestial glory without works. This basically equates to "salvation without works". Now before one jumps to conclusions we must actually define what "works" means in salvation terminology. Some may think "works" may merely mean "bowing the knee", but in truthfulness "works" actually refers to "obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel" and we know the "first" laws and ordiances of the gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Basically- those are the first "works" spoken of in salvation terms. Here is the scripture which defines this slavation concept of "works"-8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the apower of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bbind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the cordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead.(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 128:8)But, we do have within our doctrine a salvation from hell without these works manifest- that of the telestial glory. We are taught that telestial salvation is obtained only through suffering for our own sins and then aknowledgeing Christ by bowing the knee. But, there are no "works" in this model. In essence, at least a portion of our doctrinal "heaven" can house individuals who manifest no "works" and be justified and appointed to "heaven" on "faith without works" alone!So I ask- Are we deceiving ourselves and other religions when we teach that our doctrine doesn't teach a "salvation without works" model when in fact we do have such a model within our doctrinal framework?You're absolutely right. In mormon theology, faith alone can probably get you into the terrestrial kingdom where you can be in the presence of Jesus Christ which is basically the traditional Christian heaven. If you want to become like God in celestial kingdom, works are necessary.
Cobalt-70 Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 You're absolutely right. In mormon theology, faith alone can probably get you into the terrestrial kingdom where you can be in the presence of Jesus Christ which is basically the traditional Christian heaven. If you want to become like God in celestial kingdom, works are necessary.There was a thread a month or so ago that touched on this. I was arguing that contrary to popular belief, Mormonism has adopted the Protestant doctrine of sola fide. Salvation only requires that the tongue ultimately confesses and that the knee ultimately bows, after which the saved will inherit a (perhaps telestial) degree of heavenly glory. As to exaltation, I think the focus is not so much on the works, as it is on the sanctification. Being saved within the grace of Jesus, those who are on a Celestial path are then sanctified by living a righteous life and taking part in various holy ordinances. Eventually, long after mortal life, they are sanctified to the point of perfection.
Flyonthewall Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 You must also define what "Saved" means. Being "saved" in the telestial kingdom is not the same as being saved in the traditional Christian sense, or even LDS sense.LDS have a little saying: Salvation without Exaltation is Damnation.So being "saved" to anything other than the Celestial kingdom would be damnation if we were to compare apples to apples.That being said, there is circumstances where we believe salvation without works - those who die without reaching the age of accountability is one example.
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 You must also define what "Saved" means. Being "saved" in the telestial kingdom is not the same as being saved in the traditional Christian sense, or even LDS sense.LDS have a little saying: Salvation without Exaltation is Damnation.So being "saved" to anything other than the Celestial kingdom would be damnation if we were to compare apples to apples.That being said, there is circumstances where we believe salvation without works - those who die without reaching the age of accountability is one example.I tend to disagree with the definition of "damnation" as you define it. Damnation is defined by the scriptures as condemnation to hell. One cannot have salvation and damnation at the same time. Any person who is saved from hell is thus saved from damnation. The idea in mormonism of "Salvation without Exaltation is Damnation" is not based off of any truth in scripture, it's just a phrase coined by LDS that attempts to clarify a misconception.
seriously honestly Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 You're absolutely right. In mormon theology, faith alone can probably get you into the terrestrial kingdom where you can be in the presence of Jesus Christ which is basically the traditional Christian heaven. If you want to become like God in celestial kingdom, works are necessary.No, not even close; the Christian concept of heaven includes living in the presence of the Father, and is more closely related to your idea of the celestial kingdom.
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:Damntion is not explicitly Hell. It is the lack of Progression. In that sense anything less than the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 No, not even close; the Christian concept of heaven includes living in the presence of the Father, and is more closely related to your idea of the celestial kingdom.But is this only because, they believe in no other kingdoms in heaven and that where Christ is so is the Father, not to mention Modelist who think Christ is the Father.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:Damntion is not explicitly Hell. It is the lack of Progression. In that sense anything less than the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation.Hell is as much a state of mind as a place.
BCSpace Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) For the lowest level of the Telestial, I think one could go either way and still be right. All one has to do is go through life like a bump on a log and one will inherit that level for sure. Hence, no works. But since it is part of the kingdom of heaven, besides bowing the knee and confessing, perhaps one is also agreeing to a certain standard of behavior and in that sense works are required.For example, perhaps there is a third opportunity to be baptised besides mortality and the afterlife before the judgement. Such baptism would be required to live in the kingdom of heaven, but receiving it at or after the judgement does not affect one's degree of glory. It is just for simple eligibility to remain. Edited November 8, 2011 by BCSpace
seriously honestly Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 But is this only because, they believe in no other kingdoms in heaven and that where Christ is so is the Father,Yes, but to say that we think of heaven as the terrestrial kingdom is incorrect.
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:Damntion is not explicitly Hell. It is the lack of Progression. In that sense anything less than the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation.Perhaps you could provide some scriptures to back up this idea. I personally haven't found any scripture that would support such a definition.As I understand it, damnation is "condemnation" and is used int he context of one who is or will be condemned to hell.
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/damnation?lang=eng
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 For the lowest level of the Telestial, I think one could go either way and still be right. All one has to do is go through life like a bump on a log and one will inherit that level for sure. Hence, no works. But since it is part of the kingdom of heaven, besides bowing the knee and confessing, perhaps one is also agreeing to a certain standard of behavior and in that sense works are required.For example, perhaps there is a third opportunity to be baptised besides mortality and the afterlife before the judgement. Such baptism would be required to live in the kingdom of heaven, but receiving it at or after the judgement does not affect one's degree of glory. It is just for simple eligibility to remain.I have yet to find any doctrine- in manuals, that teach baptism being required to inherit the telestial kingdom. As far as I can tell and gather, all that is required to inherit telestial glory is suffering for ones sins and then aknowledege the Savior and not deny him.
cdowis Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Yes, but to say that we think of heaven as the terrestrial kingdom is incorrect.The terrestrial kingdom is heaven.If you look at how the evangelists describe heaven == no marriage, in the presence of Christ, no individual endowment of divine power, a state of happiness perhaps by spending eternity singing praises, no covenants (baptism). Edited November 8, 2011 by cdowis
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:http://lds.org/scrip...nation?lang=engI don't consider the Bible Dictionary to be scripture. None of the scriptures listed by the bible dictionary for "damnation" supports it's definition. What "scripture vers/verses" are there to support this definition you put forth?
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:Unless a man be born of water and of the spirit he can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Baptism is required of all either in this life, or acceptance by proxy in the next.
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:I don't "Consider" it Scripture either. However it is a reliable resource for what we believe.Here is another;http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=fddc991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:Unless a man be born of water and of the spirit he can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Baptism is required of all either in this life, or acceptance by proxy in the next.I fully agree that no one can be saved without baptism. But, my presentation here is to show how there is a doctrinal belief within mormonism that states something to the contrary- that man can enter heaven without this baptism. Yes, I am hinting around the issue of our doctrine having a hole in it and thus being no different in that aspect than other Christian religions.
Rob Osborn Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:I don't "Consider" it Scripture either. However it is a reliable resource for what we believe.Here is another;http://lds.org/ldsor...0004d82620aRCRDDo you have any scriptures that would support the idea of damnation equalling anything less than celestial exaltation?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Do you have any scriptures that would support the idea of damnation equalling anything less than celestial exaltation?What is damnation? Is it, in one sense, the lack of an ability to progress in all areas?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Yes, but to say that we think of heaven as the terrestrial kingdom is incorrect.How so?
Cobalt-70 Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Damntion is not explicitly Hell. It is the lack of Progression. In that sense anything less than the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation.I disagree. In post-1832 Mormon theology, salvation is to be redeemed from hell and from sin. The wicked who are ultimately cleansed from sin after accepting Jesus in the afterlife are redeemed from hell and reunited with the Godhead via the Holy Spirit. In the telestial world, they will be in the presence of God, the Holy Spirit (though not the Father and the Son). Whether or not Joseph Smith believed they can thereafter "progress" to a higher degree of glory remains unknown.
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Cobalt-70:Correct but incomplete. Salvation is more than just saving from hell. Salvation is receiving all that the Father hath.Whether there is progression between Kingdoms is not established doctrine. I personally believe there is no progress between Kingdoms, but progression within Kingdoms 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Rob Osborn:LDS accept what Jesus said about Baptism.
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