altersteve Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 I know these weren't directed at me, but...1. If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth?Christ only has the power that the Father allows Him to have. Since the Father's power is manifested in Christ, the power that the Son has (and the power that anyone else may have) belongs only to the Father.2. When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?He was God, not just "a God."3. In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now? Does Heavenly Mother? Do any other Gods have all power?We don't know. Church leaders discourage us from speculating on things like this.
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Steve,You wrote:I know these weren't directed at me, but...I appreciate your responses. Thank you.You wrote:Christ only has the power that the Father allows Him to have. Since the Father's power is manifested in Christ, the power that the Son has (and the power that anyone else may have) belongs only to the Father.... He [Christ] was God, not just "a God."From my theological perspective, to affirm that someone is God but at the same time to assert that whatever power he has does not really belong to him but to someone else is incoherent. It certainly requires a different understanding of what it means to be God. You see, whatever power I have comes from God and I remain dependent on God for that power; that fact makes me not God. Even if, hypothetically, God authorized me to use all sorts of powers that aren't mine intrinsically or by nature (like "Bruce Almighty"), I would not be God (as Bruce found out!).
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Steve,You wrote:I appreciate your responses. Thank you.What about my response?
altersteve Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Steve,You wrote:I appreciate your responses. Thank you.You wrote:From my theological perspective, to affirm that someone is God but at the same time to assert that whatever power he has does not really belong to him but to someone else is incoherent. It certainly requires a different understanding of what it means to be God. You see, whatever power I have comes from God and I remain dependent on God for that power; that fact makes me not God. Even if, hypothetically, God authorized me to use all sorts of powers that aren't mine intrinsically or by nature (like "Bruce Almighty"), I would not be God (as Bruce found out!).Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough. What I meant was that the power that Christ has is from the Father. It is, technically speaking, Christ's power, but as Jesus Himself taught, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19). He goes on to say that the Father "sheweth [the Son] all things that himself doeth" (verse 20), and that He gave the Son the power to raise the dead (verse 21) and to judge (verse 22). Acts 10:38 says that "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power." Jesus also said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).It is the Father's power. It is the Father by whom Christ was made God the Son. Together, "they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth" (Mosiah 15:4), but this is because of the Father giving the Son the power to do so. Christ does not "lack power," but the power that He does have is, ultimately, His Father's. In no way does this make Christ "not God."I love Bruce Almighty, by the way.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 What about my response?Hello, Rob?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough. What I meant was that the power that Christ has is from the Father.As Christ said; "I do nothing of myself except that which the father doeth, that I do" (too paraphrase)
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,You asked:What about my response?See post #100.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Pa Pa,You asked:See post #100.I would think the bullet points should be part of the response, but yes; that is a no. BTW all of my points...this is according to the Bible, not the teachings of the LDS Church. Edited November 8, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,Your questions appear below in block quotes, with my responses and questions for you following.Let me take this one...Jesus learned obedience through the things which he suffered; how does an all knowing God learn.He incarnates himself in finite human nature and experiences our limitations while in his eternal, transcendent being remaining the omniscient one. Questions for you: Was Jesus was obedient to the Father before coming to the earth? If so, did he learn something again that he had already learned?Also from Hebrews..."he became the author of our eternal salvation"; how could this be if already was.He wasn't, in the sense meant in that verse. That is, Christ actually accomplished or produced our salvation by his faithfulness in undergoing the crucifixion on our behalf.He knows not the hour of his coming...maybe he still does not...again problem with all knowing.See above. I see no reason to think he still doesn't know.Jesus has a Father he calls our Father, Jesus has a God that he calls our God, and then calls us his brethren...sounds like we all came from the same source.Oddly, Jesus never describes the Father as "our" Father, meaning his and the disciples' Father; the only place he uses the word "our" is in his model prayer for them to use. In one passage, Jesus uses a rather cumbersome wording to avoid referring to himself and the disciples as relating to the Father in the same way: "I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Why didn't he simply say "to our Father and our God"? I suggest it was because his relationship with God the Father was different from ours. This suggestion is not original with me; it goes back many centuries (e.g., Thomas Aquinas, and perhaps others before him).Jesus does not call everyone his brothers; he uses this term for his disciples (see especially Mark 3:33-35). We are God's creatures and Christ's students by nature; we are called and made God's children and Christ's brothers by grace. On the other hand, Jesus Christ is God's Son by nature and became God's servant by grace.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,Your questions appear below in block quotes, with my responses and questions for you following.He incarnates himself in finite human nature and experiences our limitations while in his eternal, transcendent being remaining the omniscient one. Questions for you: Was Jesus was obedient to the Father before coming to the earth? If so, did he learn something again that he had already learned?Start with this first, or you saying that he did not know our limitations before "he incarnates himself in finite human nature and experiences our limitations"? That is quite an admission!
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,You wrote:Start with this first, or you saying that he did not know our limitations before "he incarnates himself in finite human nature and experiences our limitations"? That is quite an admission!No, I didn't say that. He knew all about them, but had not experienced them as his own.
ERayR Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Steve,You wrote:I appreciate your responses. Thank you.You wrote:From my theological perspective, to affirm that someone is God but at the same time to assert that whatever power he has does not really belong to him but to someone else is incoherent. It certainly requires a different understanding of what it means to be God. You see, whatever power I have comes from God and I remain dependent on God for that power; that fact makes me not God. Even if, hypothetically, God authorized me to use all sorts of powers that aren't mine intrinsically or by nature (like "Bruce Almighty"), I would not be God (as Bruce found out!).From your theological perspective what exactly is God. It would be helpful to know your conceptualization of God. That way we can cease to talk past each other. I am not interested in a rehersal of the creeds but rather what it means to you. In plain english tell what God is.
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Ray,You asked:From your theological perspective what exactly is God. It would be helpful to know your conceptualization of God. That way we can cease to talk past each other. I am not interested in a rehersal of the creeds but rather what it means to you. In plain english tell what God is.God is the only self-existent being, the sole Creator of all creation, which includes everything and everyone else that has ever existed and will ever exist.
Vance Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,I answered your three questions directly. You refused to answer any of mine, dismissing them as irrelevant. This is not acceptable. Please answer my questions. I will repeat them for your convenience here, with some comments on your dismissal of the questions.1. If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth? Please note that LDS doctrine officially teaches that Jesus was Jehovah before he became a man. Also note that in LDS teaching, Jehovah is sometimes described as the "God of heaven and earth," e.g., Jeffrey Holland's speech "The Inconvenient Messiah," and the Old Testament Student Manual.This question is still irrelevant and is base upon a false premise. It doesn't require "ALL" power/authority to create heaven and earth, it only requires sufficient power.At least one of the problems you have is that you fail to recognize that Jesus was given "all authority/power" after His resurrection making Him fully God at that point. Not that He was less than divine at any time before that. "In the beginning" Jesus was divine and had power over the elements and over life and death. He also had this same power DURING His mortal ministry. The water to wine, walking on water, increasing the bread and the fishes, raising the dead to life, the cursing of the tree. From the beginning he had power/authority in heaven and earth, but only after His resurrection was He given "ALL power/authority". 2. When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?Irrelevant. But, yes. Being a God/god doesn't require having "all power/authority" it only requires having sufficient power/authority. If you are arguing that "all power/authority" is necessary to be a God, then for you Jesus wasn't a God.So, which is the Evangelical view?a) Jesus was not God, because He gave up His Godhood (all power/authority) to become fully man.b) Jesus was God (and NOT fully man), but lied about receiving "all power/authority" after His resurrectionOr, is it the LDS point of view,c) Jesus was always a divine being/god/God, but became FULLY and completely (KJV "perfect") after His resurrection. 3. In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now? Irrelevant, but no. He has sufficient power.
Vance Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,You wrote:No, I didn't say that. He knew all about them, but had not experienced them as his own.So, you can "know" what salt tastes like before you experience the taste of salt?Yeah, right.
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,You wrote:So, you can "know" what salt tastes like before you experience the taste of salt?Yeah, right.Does Jesus Christ know what it's like to feel guilty? Does Heavenly Father?
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,You wrote:This question is still irrelevant and is base upon a false premise. It doesn't require "ALL" power/authority to create heaven and earth, it only requires sufficient power.How do you know this?If Christ was the God of heaven and earth, i.e., the God who not only made heaven and earth but sustained its existence and providentially ruled its history, then he would by definition have had all authority in heaven and earth. That is, he would have the right and responsibility in all matters pertaining to heaven and earth. See below on the distinction between power and authority. Once one understands what authority means as well as what Christ's position was before the Incarnation, one should be able to see that Christ did in fact have all authority in heaven and earth before he came to the earth as a man. How this fits with Matthew 28:18 will be explained below.You wrote:At least one of the problems you have is that you fail to recognize that Jesus was given "all authority/power" after His resurrection making Him fully God at that point. Not that He was less than divine at any time before that.Being "divine," evidently, is something other than being "God" in your understanding, or at least something other than being "fully God." John 1:1 tells us that the Logos, i.e., the preincarnate Christ, was already "God" in the beginning, before he became a man. There is no suggestion there or anywhere else that he was "God" but less than "fully God." In John 17:5, Christ affirmed that he was returning to the glory that he had alongside the Father before the world existed.There is a significant difference between power (dunamis) and authority (exousia). Power is ability; authority is a position of responsibility for implementing ability. God the Son voluntarily humbled himself to function on earth as the Servant of the Lord, to live as a human being in dependence on the Father as his God, in order to redeem us from sin. In sacrificing himself in that way and to the further extreme of dying on the cross to accomplish that redemption, Christ submitted himself to the Father and depended on him to bestow divine authority on him--the authority that was his by right as Jehovah (see Phil. 2:6-11). This did not mean that he lacked divine nature or attributes--he was still and always fully God--but that he chose freely to humble himself by taking the position of one dependent on God for his authority, his right and responsibility to use power. What is new about Christ's divine authority after his resurrection is that he holds it as the incarnate Son, i.e., as the God-man, whereas before his incarnation he was God but not man.
Vance Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,You wrote:How do you know this?How do you know otherwise?It is rather OBVIOUS that Jesus/Jehovah had sufficient power/authority to "create"/organize "the heavens and the earth". What evidence do you have that any of this power/authority was relinquished during His incarnation? As I said before, He had power/authority over the elements and over life and death. What exactly did He have to give up? If Christ was the God of heaven and earth, i.e., the God who not only made heaven and earth but sustained its existence and providentially ruled its history, then he would by definition have had all authority in heaven and earth.No, ONLY by YOUR definition. I don't need to define it that way.OOPS, Got to go. Hopefully I will have some time later to write more.
Vance Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,Does Jesus Christ know what it's like to feel guilty?Yes. He experienced it when the Father totally withdrew His presences. See Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34 Does Heavenly Father?We can assume so.
Vance Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) That is, he would have the right and responsibility in all matters pertaining to heaven and earth.Nah, He only need sufficient right and responsibility. Once one understands what authority means as well as what Christ's position was before the Incarnation, one should be able to see that Christ did in fact have all authority in heaven and earth before he came to the earth as a man.Nah, you are only presuming here. He only needed sufficient authority to accomplish the creation. And there is no reason to presume that He lost any of that sufficient authority during the incarnation. Being "divine," evidently, is something other than being "God" in your understanding, or at least something other than being "fully God." John 1:1 tells us that the Logos, i.e., the preincarnate Christ, was already "God" in the beginning, before he became a man.Nah, it only tells us that He was next to/by/near/with "the god" or "THE GOD" and that he was divine, a "god" or a "GOD". Nothing in there about "all power/authority". There is no suggestion there or anywhere else that he was "God" but less than "fully God."Nor is there anything there to suggest that He was equal to "THE GOD" in every way. In John 17:5, Christ affirmed that he was returning to the glory that he had alongside the Father before the world existed.That, of course, is irrelevant to "power"/"authority". There is a significant difference between power (dunamis) and authority (exousia). Power is ability; authority is a position of responsibility for implementing ability.Interesting, but irrelevant. God the Son voluntarily humbled himself to function on earth as the Servant of the Lord, to live as a human being in dependence on the Father as his God, in order to redeem us from sin.Sorry, but "God the Son" isn't found anywhere in scripture. You are presuming and asserting some things, again.Forgetting some important facts.Matt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,Matt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Edited November 8, 2011 by Vance
Vance Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 In sacrificing himself in that way and to the further extreme of dying on the cross to accomplish that redemption, Christ submitted himself to the Father and depended on him to bestow divine authority on him--the authority that was his by right as Jehovah (see Phil. 2:6-11).Nah, you are reading things into those verses that aren't there.Now, here is where you reword what I said, so you are agreeing with me, but you just can't admit it. This did not mean that he lacked divine nature or attributes--Yes, that is what I said, He was divine, a god, just not fully God. . . . he was still and always fully God--Now this contradicts the previous part above and the part below. . . . voluntarily humbled himself to function on earth as the Servant of the Lord, to live as a human being in dependence on the Father . . .If He was "fully God" then He wouldn't be dependent on the Father now would He. but that he chose freely to humble himself by taking the position of one dependent on God for his authority, his right and responsibility to use power.If He was dependent on someone else then He wasn't "fully God". What is new about Christ's divine authority after his resurrection is that he holds it as the incarnate Son, i.e., as the God-man, You haven't and can't show that He lost any power/authority during the incarnation. You are fabricating a lack of authority/power in order to justify the need to re-receive it.
saemo Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 How are they "One God" as you see it; I already know what the term means to us,via John 17...Hello,Going back to Jesus' prayer in John 17:“I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. (Jn 17:6)“I made known to them your name and I will make it known,that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.” (Jn 17:26)I've taken a few quote out of the book, "The God of Jesus Christ: Meditations on the Triune God" by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger... Prayer was the center out of which Jesus lived, and it was prayer that showed him how to understand God, the world, and men.Jesus shows us what it means to lead the whole of one’s life on the basis of the affirmation that “God is”First 4 commandments, given center and meaning, Jesus revealing what this center is…God, parent, love…God is love Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us. (1 John 4:7-12) Jesus lives in an uninterrupted prayerful communication with God, which is the foundation of his existence.This communication is essential to the Father, whom he addresses. The father would be someone else if he were not addressed in this way.Just as essential for the Father to say “Son” as it is for the Son to say “Father”.Jesus does not merely touch him from the outside; he belongs to the divinity of God, as Son. Before the world was made God is already the love of the Father and Son.In Jesus’ prayer, the inner life of God becomes visible to us: we see how God himself is. Faith in the triune God is nothing other than the exposition of what takes place in Jesus’ prayer. In this prayer, the Trinity is revealed. The Spirit dwells in the Word, not in a departure from the Word. The Word is the location of the Spirit; Jesus is the source of the Spirit. The more we enter into him, the more really do we enter into the Spirit, and the Spirit enters into us.We come to see the Spirit, not by departing from the Son, but by entering into him. John 20:19-23 The Father and the Son are one with each other by going out beyond themselves; it is in the third Person, in the fruitfulness of their act of giving, that they are One. Becoming a Christian means sharing in Jesus’ prayer, entering into the model provided by his life, that is, the model of his prayer. Becoming a Christian means asking, “Father” with Jesus and, thus, becoming a child. Father, Son, in the unity of the Holy Spirit – God, who allows us to be ourselves and precisely in this way draws us into the unity of God.
altersteve Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Yes, that is what I said, He was divine, a god, just not fully God.Jesus was and is fully God, Vance, by the grace and power of the Father. He has always been God the Son, the Great I AM, Jehovah, the Lord Omnipotent. Not just "a god." He was and is God in every way that the Father is. Every name by which the Father is known can also appropriately be given to Christ. They are one.
Calm Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 [*]Prayer was the center out of which Jesus lived, and it was prayer that showed him how to understand God, the world, and men. This is what I don't understand....if Christ is one in being with the Father, how could he not always have understood God, why would he need prayer or anything else?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 See above. I see no reason to think he still doesn't know.So how does God go about concealing something from God?
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