Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 This is what I don't understand....if Christ is one in being with the Father, how could he not always have understood God, why would he need prayer or anything else?Also even after the resurrection he continued to pray.
Rob Bowman Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Pa Pa,You wrote:Also even after the resurrection he continued to pray.CFR.
Vance Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Jesus was and is fully God, Vance, by the grace and power of the Father.Of course He is! Duh. Where exactly did I say He isn't? He has always been God the Son,CFR (Because I don't recall Him ever being referred to as "God the Son" anywhere in scripture.) He was . . . God in every way that the Father is.Nah. He didn't have a resurrected body of flesh and bones. Every name by which the Father is known can also appropriately be given to Christ.AbsolutelyThey are one.One what? Edited November 9, 2011 by Vance
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 Hello,Going back to Jesus' prayer in John 17:“I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. (Jn 17:6)“I made known to them your name and I will make it known,that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.” (Jn 17:26)I've taken a few quote out of the book, "The God of Jesus Christ: Meditations on the Triune God" by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger...Prayer was the center out of which Jesus lived, and it was prayer that showed him how to understand God, the world, and men.Jesus shows us what it means to lead the whole of one’s life on the basis of the affirmation that “God is”First 4 commandments, given center and meaning, Jesus revealing what this center is…God, parent, love…God is love Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another. No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us. (1 John 4:7-12) Jesus lives in an uninterrupted prayerful communication with God, which is the foundation of his existence.This communication is essential to the Father, whom he addresses. The father would be someone else if he were not addressed in this way.Just as essential for the Father to say “Son” as it is for the Son to say “Father”.Jesus does not merely touch him from the outside; he belongs to the divinity of God, as Son. Before the world was made God is already the love of the Father and Son.In Jesus’ prayer, the inner life of God becomes visible to us: we see how God himself is. Faith in the triune God is nothing other than the exposition of what takes place in Jesus’ prayer. In this prayer, the Trinity is revealed.The Spirit dwells in the Word, not in a departure from the Word. The Word is the location of the Spirit; Jesus is the source of the Spirit. The more we enter into him, the more really do we enter into the Spirit, and the Spirit enters into us.We come to see the Spirit, not by departing from the Son, but by entering into him. John 20:19-23The Father and the Son are one with each other by going out beyond themselves; it is in the third Person, in the fruitfulness of their act of giving, that they are One.Becoming a Christian means sharing in Jesus’ prayer, entering into the model provided by his life, that is, the model of his prayer. Becoming a Christian means asking, “Father” with Jesus and, thus, becoming a child. Father, Son, in the unity of the Holy Spirit – God, who allows us to be ourselves and precisely in this way draws us into the unity of God.Well this gets back to my original comments and subsequent ones. How does "God" give himself something? I fear you and others are making my case for me while trying to defend the Nicene Creed and Christian Orthodoxy.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 3 Nephi 17:17-18Thanks Vance, but I am not sure he will accept this. So Rob what evidence do you have that he did not pray.
Vance Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Thanks Vance, but I am not sure he will accept this. So Rob what evidence do you have that he did not pray.Whether he accepts it or not is irrelevant. We accept it. IF (big IF) he really wants to understand Mormonism then he needs to accept the fact that we accept the BOM as scripture. And a reference from it is valid in support of our beliefs.
saemo Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 This is what I don't understand....if Christ is one in being with the Father, how could he not always have understood God, why would he need prayer or anything else?What Cardinal Ratzinger was teaching, is that prayer is what the internal life of the Holy Trinity is. It is not something external, but internal to their Being as One. Jesus knows the Father and the Father knows Jesus, in their internal life as One. Jesus, in His prayer, shows us the life of the Father and the Son, which is the life of the Holy Trinity. God Revealed.The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. They are not absorbed into each other, they are distinct Persons. They are One divine being. God, being the name we give to this Divine Being. God, Reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God, names Himself as "I AM".
Rob Bowman Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Vance,I accept that a reference to the BOM is adequate from your religious perspective. The issue here is not understanding Mormonism. I respectfully disagree with your religious perspective; for me, the fact that Jesus' humiliation is over and he is now seated at the right hand of the Father, exercising all authority in the universe, is sufficient proof that he no longer prays.Whether he accepts it or not is irrelevant. We accept it. IF (big IF) he really wants to understand Mormonism then he needs to accept the fact that we accept the BOM as scripture. And a reference from it is valid in support of our beliefs.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Vance,I accept that a reference to the BOM is adequate from your religious perspective. The issue here is not understanding Mormonism. I respectfully disagree with your religious perspective; for me, the fact that Jesus' humiliation is over and he is now seated at the right hand of the Father, exercising all authority in the universe, is sufficient proof that he no longer prays.Luke 24:30
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Whether he accepts it or not is irrelevant. We accept it. IF (big IF) he really wants to understand Mormonism then he needs to accept the fact that we accept the BOM as scripture. And a reference from it is valid in support of our beliefs.Good point. Not to mention his comment once again makes the point, that Christ answers to the Father. Edited November 9, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 What Cardinal Ratzinger was teaching, is that prayer is what the internal life of the Holy Trinity is. It is not something external, but internal to their Being as One. Jesus knows the Father and the Father knows Jesus, in their internal life as One. Jesus, in His prayer, shows us the life of the Father and the Son, which is the life of the Holy Trinity. God Revealed.The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. They are not absorbed into each other, they are distinct Persons. They are One divine being. God, being the name we give to this Divine Being. God, Reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God, names Himself as "I AM".What of praying to Saints, or Mary...I would like to understand; any scriptural basis for this?
Rob Bowman Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Bill,Luke 24:30 tells us that Christ "blessed and broke" the bread. Assuming that we take "blessed" to refer to a prayer, this act of prayer by Christ occurs before Christ's ascension and his coming to be seated at the right hand of the Father, which is when I stated that his "praying" would be finished. Of course, Christ still speaks to the Father. In fact, the NT refers to the ascended and glorified Christ as God's right hand "interceding" with the Father on our behalf, and states that the Holy Spirit does so also (Rom. 8:26, 34; Heb. 8:25). If one wants to call this intercession "prayer," then of course Christ still prays, but then, so does the Holy Spirit, so this "prayer" would not be a function of physical limitations or dependence on the Father's provision. As is often the case, we need to be clear about what we mean by our words so as to avoid equivocation and confusion.Luke 24:30
Bill Hamblin Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Bill,Luke 24:30 tells us that Christ "blessed and broke" the bread. Assuming that we take "blessed" to refer to a prayer, this act of prayer by Christ occurs before Christ's ascension and his coming to be seated at the right hand of the Father, which is when I stated that his "praying" would be finished. Of course, Christ still speaks to the Father. In fact, the NT refers to the ascended and glorified Christ as God's right hand "interceding" with the Father on our behalf, and states that the Holy Spirit does so also (Rom. 8:26, 34; Heb. 8:25). If one wants to call this intercession "prayer," then of course Christ still prays, but then, so does the Holy Spirit, so this "prayer" would not be a function of physical limitations or dependence on the Father's provision. As is often the case, we need to be clear about what we mean by our words so as to avoid equivocation and confusion.A masterful equivocation, worthy of a grand quibbler. 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Bill,Luke 24:30 tells us that Christ "blessed and broke" the bread. Assuming that we take "blessed" to refer to a prayer, this act of prayer by Christ occurs before Christ's ascension and his coming to be seated at the right hand of the Father, which is when I stated that his "praying" would be finished.Two things...if I may.1. You have no scriptural bases for the premise that there was no more prayer...as we know the Bible does not contain all the words of Christ.John 21: 2525 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain thebbooks that should be written. (Seems very clear that all Christ's acts or prayer are not in the Bible...not to mention the many missing epistles of the Apostles)How do you do this with only the Bible?Matthew 4: 44 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.2. What difference does it make to you, as this seems to be important to you. In addition as an extension to this point; why couldn't Christ communicate with the Father without prayer? Edited November 9, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 9, 2011 Author Posted November 9, 2011 A masterful equivocation, worthy of a grand quibbler.Agreed.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Bill,Luke 24:30 tells us that Christ "blessed and broke" the bread. Assuming that we take "blessed" to refer to a prayer, this act of prayer by Christ occurs before Christ's ascension and his coming to be seated at the right hand of the Father, which is when I stated that his "praying" would be finished. Of course, Christ still speaks to the Father. In fact, the NT refers to the ascended and glorified Christ as God's right hand "interceding" with the Father on our behalf, and states that the Holy Spirit does so also (Rom. 8:26, 34; Heb. 8:25). If one wants to call this intercession "prayer," then of course Christ still prays, but then, so does the Holy Spirit, so this "prayer" would not be a function of physical limitations or dependence on the Father's provision. As is often the case, we need to be clear about what we mean by our words so as to avoid equivocation and confusion.By the way, I should note that your CFR was for evidence that Christ prayed "after the resurrection" (#127) not after Christ's ascension--a none too subtle shifting of the goal posts after the touchdown has already been made. 2
Rob Bowman Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Bill,You wrote:By the way, I should note that your CFR was for evidence that Christ prayed "after the resurrection" (#127) not after Christ's ascension--a none too subtle shifting of the goal posts after the touchdown has already been made.Talk about quibbling. The issue we were discussing when the subject of Jesus praying came up is whether Jesus Christ is fully God. One reason that was given against his being fully God was that he prayed. Pa Pa added that Christ prayed even after his resurrection. I asked for a reference supporting his claim, but then even before you cited Luke 24:30, I explained my position in a way that made it clear that my position is that Jesus does not "pray" (in the sense meant in this context) now that he has ascended and been seated on the throne of God to the right hand of the Father. Jesus prayed while he was on earth because he shared in our humble mortal condition and lived in dependence on the Father as his God. He is still human, but whatever "praying" he does, if one wants to describe his intercessory work as prayer, is not the same kind of praying he would have done while living as a mortal, experiencing daily needs, trials, and temptations, and so forth. That was my point all along, and explaining this in more detail and with more precision is not moving the goal posts.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Bill,You wrote:Talk about quibbling. The issue we were discussing when the subject of Jesus praying came up is whether Jesus Christ is fully God. One reason that was given against his being fully God was that he prayed. Pa Pa added that Christ prayed even after his resurrection. I asked for a reference supporting his claim, but then even before you cited Luke 24:30, I explained my position in a way that made it clear that my position is that Jesus does not "pray" (in the sense meant in this context) now that he has ascended and been seated on the throne of God to the right hand of the Father. Jesus prayed while he was on earth because he shared in our humble mortal condition and lived in dependence on the Father as his God. He is still human, but whatever "praying" he does, if one wants to describe his intercessory work as prayer, is not the same kind of praying he would have done while living as a mortal, experiencing daily needs, trials, and temptations, and so forth. That was my point all along, and explaining this in more detail and with more precision is not moving the goal posts.I'm not going to quibble about your quibbling, or equivocate about your equivocation.I will note, however that your very own citations describe Christ as praying.Rom 8:34 describes Christ as entugchanei to God for humans. In BDAG 341 it notes that when entugchanō is directed to God, it is translated as "pray" (1b). Rom 8:26 uses huperentugchanei, that is, huper-entugchanei, or to do entugchanei huper/on behalf of someone. Same root verb as in 8:34.Heb 7:25 also says that Christ entugchanein huper us. Same root verb again.Thus, according to the standard NT Dictionary, these passages describe Christ praying to the Father on behalf of us.Your theological speculations are clearly causing you to misinterpret the data. Edited November 9, 2011 by Bill Hamblin 4
saemo Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Well this gets back to my original comments and subsequent ones. How does "God" give himself something? I fear you and others are making my case for me while trying to defend the Nicene Creed and Christian Orthodoxy.Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding your point....what did God give Himself?
saemo Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 What of praying to Saints, or Mary...I would like to understand; any scriptural basis for this?This seems to be a random thought. ...in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints
altersteve Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Of course He is! Duh. Where exactly did I say He isn't?I was trying to emphasize the fact that He was God as well, not just is.CFR (Because I don't recall Him ever being referred to as "God the Son" anywhere in scripture.)But He is referred to as "God the Son" by modern prophets and apostles. Do a quick search on LDS.org and you'll find a lot.Nah. He didn't have a resurrected body of flesh and bones.A body is not required for one to be God. The Holy Ghost is also God, yet He obviously doesn't have a body either. A body is necessary to have a fullness of joy. This is why Jehovah is called "God" and "the LORD" in the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon; because He was God. He was prayed and sacrificed to, and He was worshiped as God, despite not having a body at the time.One what?One God, obviously (D&C 20:28; Mosiah 15:4; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; etc.). They always have been. Edited November 9, 2011 by altersteve
Rob Bowman Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Bill,You're way too late. I not only brought up these texts before you did, I acknowledged--twice--that the ascended Jesus' intercession in these texts could be called praying. So your comments have added nothing to the discussion except confirmation of what I have already said!I'm not going to quibble about your quibbling, or equivocate about your equivocation.I will note, however that your very own citations describe Christ as praying.Rom 8:34 describes Christ as entugchanei to God for humans. In BDAG 341 it notes that when entugchanō is directed to God, it is translated as "pray" (1b). Rom 8:26 uses huperentugchanei, that is, huper-entugchanei, or to do entugchanei huper/on behalf of someone. Same root verb as in 8:34.Heb 7:25 also says that Christ entugchanein huper us. Same root verb again.Thus, according to the standard NT Dictionary, these passages describe Christ praying to the Father on behalf of us.Your theological speculations are clearly causing you to misinterpret the data. Edited November 10, 2011 by Rob Bowman
Bill Hamblin Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Bill,You're way too late. I not only brought up these texts before you did, I acknowledged--twice--that Jesus' intercession in these texts could be called praying. So your comments have added nothing to the discussion except confirmation of what I have already said!Except, of course, demonstrating that the ascended Jesus does in fact pray to the Father.
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