Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 I do believe Pa Pa has a point. Most of my extended family and friends are not members of the Church and more often than not I'll here them start a prayer addressing the Father but end "in Your Holy Name, Amen". In the LDS Church we pray to/address the Father and we close in the name of Jesus Christ because it is Christ who is our advocate with the Father. "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6So from my experiance I've noticed the "confusion" (for lack of a better word) in other churches as well.Agreed
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 Vance,Your three questions regarding Matthew 28:18 appear below, followed by my answers and then my questions for you.Question 1: When was Jesus given "all power"?A better translation would be "all authority" (the Greek word is exousia). Jesus was given all authority in the specific sense and way meant here (see below) at his resurrection. Question for you: If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth?Question 2: Why was it needed for Jesus to be given "all power"?Having humbled himself for our salvation, he had placed himself in a position of dependence on the Father to vindicate, glorify, and honor him. The text does not mean that Jesus was less than God before his incarnation or resurrection. Question for you: When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?Question 3: Who gave Jesus "all power"?The Father gave him "all authority," as explained above. Questions for you: In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now? Does Heavenly Mother? Do any other Gods have all power?For a book that is supposed to be inerrant, it has often seemed strange that there are so many versions, along with the need to return and retranslate each word it make an argument. We can either trust the words of Christ or not.Jesus Learned (according to Hebrews)Jesus said (when called good) there is no one except my Father in Heaven.Jesus has a Father, whom he also called him ours...he also said that he has a God, which is our God as well.Jesus had a different will than the Father, but submitted to his Father's will.Jesus does not know when he will return, but God the Father does.
Vance Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 God IS One.One what?Circular argument in 3, 2, 1,
Vance Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Well, there is where we differ, and it is quite a difference. There is no "God of gods" in Christianity, there is but One God, Who IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Really? Well where did He go?Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Edited November 7, 2011 by Vance 2
shalamabobbi Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Really? Well where did He go?Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. I suspect that there may be some "equivocation" on the part of the opposition in this argument in that they will declare these gods to be imaginary in nature; idols.So to head that off we can add this scripture, and note that if we put this idea of false , imaginary gods back into these old testament scriptures that the meaning isn't quite as impressive:Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of the imaginary false gods, or idols: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 Well, for one, Mormon Christians believe the Father inhabits a corporeal body, whereas Mainstream Christians do not.Based on what a single scripture...how would this make the Father, less God?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 God IS One. I don't see how a Mormon ever explains this without dividing the One True God, into three Gods.One being is not three beings. You are one being, one person. God has revealed Himself as One Being, three Persons. Mormons profess God as three beings, three persons...at least, with a belief in multiple gods, of who knows how many.This is not possible. There can only be One All Powerful, as more than One All Powerful immediately cancels what it means to be All Powerful.But how does the one God, be divided against itself? How does he withdraw or conceal information for his other 2/3"s. There is without a doubt to anyone familiar with the Bible knows that Christ speaks only what the Father speaks, and Holy Ghost speaks the words of Christ. Sounds to as if (as with all patriarchal orders, the Father holds all power.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 Really? Well where did He go?Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. I can't wait for the response to this. Elohiem (Jewish alliteration) means "God of Gods"...to paraphrase.
diglot Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Based on what a single scripture...how would this make the Father, less God?Irrelevant. I did not say it would make the Father "less God."I am simply stating there is an obvious difference between the mainstream Christian view of God and the LDS view of God.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 Really? Well where did He go?Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Dan. 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret. Dan. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. I have posted a paper where I examine the concept of "God of gods," though not in the context of the issue on this thread:Focused discussions, "Israelite Sons of God" #11http://hamblinofjerusalem.wordpress.com/2011/11/05/god-of-gods/
saemo Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 But how does the one God, be divided against itself? How does he withdraw or conceal information for his other 2/3"s. There is without a doubt to anyone familiar with the Bible knows that Christ speaks only what the Father speaks, and Holy Ghost speaks the words of Christ. Sounds to as if (as with all patriarchal orders, the Father holds all power.?I'm not sure what you're asking because what you're asking doesn't make sense to me. God is not divided, that is a basic doctrine as well.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 Irrelevant.I did not say it would make the Father "less God."I am simply stating there is an obvious difference between the mainstream Christian view of God and the LDS view of God.Based on what? God is described in corporeal terms throughout the OT and NT.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 ?I'm not sure what you're asking because what you're asking doesn't make sense to me. God is not divided, that is a basic doctrine as well.Let me go back and extend some examples...Jesus Learned (according to Hebrews)Jesus said (when called good) there is no one except my Father in Heaven.Jesus has a Father, whom he also called him ours...he also said that he has a God, which is our God as well.Jesus had a different will than the Father, but submitted to his Father's will.Jesus does not know when he will return, but God the Father does.
diglot Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Based on what? God is described in corporeal terms throughout the OT and NT.I don't dispute that. However it is entirely irrelevant concerning the discussion I am in. As I said, I am merely responding to the claim that there is no difference between the LDS view of God and the mainstream Christian view of God.I don't care what the Bible says concerning God's corporeality. The Bible contains a lot of things I disregard. If I went by the worldview of the biblical authors on every matter, then I would believe in a flat-earth three-tiered universe too.I believe God to be incorporeal, but that is due to philosophical reasons moreso than scriptural. But as I said, this is irrelevant to the post of mine you were responding too; I am merely stating an obvious difference between the LDS view of God and the mainstream view of God. Edited November 7, 2011 by diglot
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2011 Author Posted November 7, 2011 I don't dispute that.However it is entirely irrelevant concerning the discussion I am in. As I said, I am merely responding to the claim that there is no difference between the LDS view of God and the mainstream Christian view of God..They are different.
Maya Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 ...Before getting babtised to LDS Church I was searcing many Churches and I have to say I almost become an Orthodox. Also Orthodox is closest to the Early Church of Jesus Christ and suprise suprise closest to what we believe in. I know some really good Orthodox people. In the Orthodox Church the old praxises from the Early Church lasted a lot longer than in Rome.
altersteve Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 As I said, I am merely responding to the claim that there is no difference between the LDS view of God and the mainstream Christian view of God.I never made that claim. I only suggested that our views on the oneness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are very similar, moreso than most people think. I admit that our views on the overall nature of God are very different.
diglot Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 I never made that claim. I only suggested that our views on the oneness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are very similar, moreso than most people think. I admit that our views on the overall nature of God are very different.My mistake. I guess I didn't read your post (#62) closely enough.
altersteve Posted November 7, 2011 Posted November 7, 2011 My mistake. I guess I didn't read your post (#62) closely enough.No problem.
Ares Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 So, then there was a time that Jesus LACKED "all authority" in some so called "specific sense" which you don't or can't indentify even though you give the impressiont that it is found somewhere below. So really, you are just blowing smoke again to distract from the fact that Jesus LACKED " all authority and had to be given it.Thanks for the admission that Jesus did indeed lack "all authority".Irrelevant to the fact that you just admitted that Jesus lacked "all authority". But it is a nice red herring. Besides, the premise to your question hasn't been established.Again, you are just blowing smoke here to distract from the fact that Jesus didn't have "all authority" BECAUSE HE LACKED IT.Your bloviating speculation as to why that might be is not supported by scripture and logic, you must, AGAIN, PRESUME it.Irrelevant, again. The problem here is yours not mine. It is you that makes an irreconcilable difference between God and man, and then say such stupid things as Jesus was fully God and fully man. If Jesus was "fully God" then why did He lack "all authority"?Thank you for this admission. So it makes it clear.Jesus DID NOT HAVE "all authority". As far as we can tell, he was give "all authority" after His resurrection. And the Father, who had "all authority" the whole time (being a seperate person,entity,individual,being) gave "all authority" to the Son, who, (being a seperate person, entity, individual,being) didn't have it.Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring.Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring. And your mocking tone didn't go unnoticed.Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring. And your mocking tone didn't go unnoticed.Refrain from using personal jabs like "blowing smoke".
saemo Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Let me go back and extend some examples...Jesus Learned (according to Hebrews)Jesus said (when called good) there is no one except my Father in Heaven.Jesus has a Father, whom he also called him ours...he also said that he has a God, which is our God as well.Jesus had a different will than the Father, but submitted to his Father's will.Jesus does not know when he will return, but God the Father does.Yes.Still don't know what you're asking. Sorry.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 Yes.Still don't know what you're asking. Sorry.How are they "One God" as you see it; I already know what the term means to us,via John 17...
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Vance,I answered your three questions directly. You refused to answer any of mine, dismissing them as irrelevant. This is not acceptable. Please answer my questions. I will repeat them for your convenience here, with some comments on your dismissal of the questions.1. If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth? Please note that LDS doctrine officially teaches that Jesus was Jehovah before he became a man. Also note that in LDS teaching, Jehovah is sometimes described as the "God of heaven and earth," e.g., Jeffrey Holland's speech "The Inconvenient Messiah," and the Old Testament Student Manual.2. When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?3. In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now? Does Heavenly Mother? Do any other Gods have all power? These are legitimate questions if you are going to maintain that a text such as Matthew 28:18 means that the pre-resurrected Christ literally was lacking some power. I assure you these questions are not, as you had claimed, asked in a mocking tone.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 8, 2011 Author Posted November 8, 2011 2. When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?Let me take this one...Jesus learned obedience through the things which he suffered; how does an all knowing God learn.Also from Hebrews..."he became the author of our eternal salvation"; how could this be if already was. He knows not the hour of his coming...maybe he still does not...again problem with all knowing.Jesus has a Father he calls our Father, Jesus has a God that he calls our God, and then calls us his brethren...sounds like we all came from the same source.
Rob Bowman Posted November 8, 2011 Posted November 8, 2011 Pa Pa,Thanks for your comments. Is that a No answer to my question?Let me take this one...Jesus learned obedience through the things which he suffered; how does an all knowing God learn.Also from Hebrews..."he became the author of our eternal salvation"; how could this be if already was.He knows not the hour of his coming...maybe he still does not...again problem with all knowing.Jesus has a Father he calls our Father, Jesus has a God that he calls our God, and then calls us his brethren...sounds like we all came from the same source.
Recommended Posts