Death Of The Father; Why The Nicene Creed Necessitated The Restoration.

[ldsfaqs]

And I have seen very different beliefs concerning the nature of God from Mormons.

Really....? That's interesting. I've been a mormon for some 30 years, and I've been an active on the net apologist for some 10 years, and I don't think I've EVER seen mormons having different beliefs concerning the nature of God, things that have been revealed anyway. Things that haven't been revealed, obviously there are going to be all kinds of views.

You shouldn't confuse your lack of understanding of mormonism with being the same as mormons having different beliefs with each other. FYI, I've also been in your religions. And even in the same religion a person can go Church to Church and there will be different beliefs on a subject. But, the same doesn't occur in mormonism, no matter the Church or the country, we all believe the same. Thus, you are wrong in your judgment.

CFR

Edited November 6, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[diglot]

Really....? That's interesting. I've been a mormon for some 30 years, and I've been an active on the net apologist for some 10 years, and I don't think I've EVER seen mormons having different beliefs concerning the nature of God, things that have been revealed anyway. Things that haven't been revealed, obviously there are going to be all kinds of views.

You shouldn't confuse your lack of understanding of mormonism with being the same as mormons having different beliefs with each other. FYI, I've also been in your religions. And even in the same religion a person can go Church to Church and there will be different beliefs on a subject. But, the same doesn't occur in mormonism, no matter the Church or the country, we all believe the same. Thus, you are wrong in your judgment.

CFR

LOL, so what if people in the same church or denomination have different views on a subject? What does that actually prove? Absolutely nothing!

And no I am not wrong in my judgment. I've seen Mormons on these very forums who have quite different views as to what the First Article of Faith means, specifically regarding God the Father.

But just keep sticking your head in the sand concerning your own religious system if you want to, I've gotten use to this from the Evangelicals over on CARM.

Edited November 6, 2011 by diglot

[Log]

Yes, then, why all the confusion over the Holy Trinity? Trinity is a short hand way to say what we just said. I confess, One God, in three Persons.

• The Father is God.
  
• The Son is God.
  
• The Holy Spirit is God.
  
• The Father is not the Son.
  
• The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
  
• The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
  
• There is exactly one God.
  

Indeed, who could possibly be confused about these simple statements taken jointly?

Edited November 6, 2011 by Log

[ldsfaqs]

LOL, so what if people in the same church or denomination have different views on a subject? What does that actually prove? Absolutely nothing!

Well first you're the one that brought it up as if it was a problem.

Second, it is actually a problem, because if the people of a religion doesn't at minimum have consistency of belief on even the basics, then it couldn't possibly be true.

And no I am not wrong in my judgment. I've seen Mormons on these very forums who have quite different views as to what the First Article of Faith means, specifically regarding God the Father.

I've never seen any mormon with problems with the First article of Faith.

As to God the Father, we have LDS Doctrine on the matter which every mormon believes, and then anything after that, we are perfectly free to speculate about. Thus, your claim is false.

But just keep sticking your head in the sand concerning your own religious system if you want to, I've gotten use to this from the Evangelicals over on CARM.

Spare me the condescension and arrogance about MY own beliefs. I'm both a convert to the Church and have left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion. My "head" is not in the sand about anything buddy. I just happen to actually know the Church and it's people, YOU however do not, and thus make false judgments. I know this for sure, because I've done the same myself in my past ignorance. So, spare me your elitism. This is our religion, not yours. We know it and each other far better than you. As to Evangelicals, Mormons aren't Evangelicals..... we have open minds, who study and learn all things, and don't feel the need to claim we are better, etc. in all low class ways they do. So please.... get some actual accurate judgment for a change. We know when we mormons disagree with each other and have different opinions about something. Thus, highly recommend you gain a little more balanced and objective experience before you start judging things and people you know little about.

[altersteve]

Yes, then, why all the confusion over the Holy Trinity? Trinity is a short hand way to say what we just said. I confess, One God, in three Persons.

It's the "one in substance" thing that confuses people. People don't understand what that means. They think it means they are literally "one in substance," i.e., that they are all physically, literally crammed into one Being. That doesn't make any sense at all. That's why we use the term "Godhead," because there's no confusion over that term. It's easy to explain and easy to understand.

"God is not the author of confusion."

Edited November 6, 2011 by altersteve

[diglot]

Well first you're the one that brought it up as if it was a problem.

No I wasn't. I was responding to someone else who bought it up.

Second, it is actually a problem, because if the people of a religion doesn't at minimum have consistency of belief on even the basics, then it couldn't possibly be true.

Wrong.

I've never seen any mormon with problems with the First article of Faith.

As to God the Father, we have LDS Doctrine on the matter which every mormon believes, and then anything after that, we are perfectly free to speculate about. Thus, your claim is false.

No I'm not.

Spare me the condescension and arrogance about MY own beliefs.

lol please.

I would ask you to do the same about mainstream Christianity.

I'm both a convert to the Church and have left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion. My "head" is not in the sand about anything buddy. I just happen to actually know the Church and it's people, YOU however do not, and thus make false judgments. I know this for sure, because I've done the same myself in my past ignorance. So, spare me your elitism.

I'm not wrong. You keep thinking that if you want though.

This is our religion, not yours. We know it and each other far better than you. As to Evangelicals, Mormons aren't Evangelicals..... we have open minds, who study and learn all things, and don't feel the need to claim we are better, etc. in all low class ways they do. So please.... get some actual accurate judgment for a change.

So I can't make judgments regarding Mormonism based on my discussion with them, but you can make judgments about evangelicalism? nice double standard.

We know when we mormons disagree with each other and have different opinions about something. Thus, highly recommend you gain a little more balanced and objective experience before you start judging things and people you know little about.

I highly recommend you gain knowledge about evangelicals and mainstream Christianity.

Edited November 6, 2011 by diglot

[saemo]

It's the "one in substance" thing that confuses people. People don't understand what that means. They think it means they are literally "one in substance," i.e., that they are all physically, literally crammed into one Being.

This is not Trinitarian doctrine or belief.

That doesn't make any sense at all. That's why we use the term "Godhead," because there's no confusion over that term. It's easy to explain and easy to understand.

"God is not the author of confusion."

God reveals Who He IS. God IS, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can't say He IS something, and then say He is not. THAT is confusion.

Godhead does not say to me God IS, it says, Gods ARE.

Edited November 6, 2011 by saemo

[Palerider]

Often times in debates with others not of our Faith; John 17: 3 is quoted…

Even though this scripture shows a clear distinction between the Father and the Son, critics quote it to point out that we have the wrong Jesus, and this is why we will not have eternal life.

This scripture come from Christ’s prayer unto the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane. In this prayer Christ makes it clear that he is willing to submit “his will” to his Father’s. If they are the same being manifest in three “persons”…how could they have opposing wills?

In this prayer he also thanks God the Father for those whom “he gave him”…how does the same being give something to himself?

Also in this prayer he explains through his words what “being one” really means, as he hopes the same relationship to exist among us, as he enjoys with the Father.

All the while, teaching us to pray as he had already commanded us to do “unto the Father”.

A few other short examples…

The Father knows when Christ will return “he” Christ does not.

Christ felt as if the Father abandoned him in his greatest hour of need, how would one conceal this from oneself?

Yet most in other Churches no longer pray to the Father as commanded by Christ, because they believe that “Father, Son and Holy Ghost” are the same being, therefore as long as your prayers are to anyone of the “three persons” it is to the same being.

I attended a funeral yesterday and no prayers were offered to the Father, but unto Christ. I fear the Nicene Creed has killed the Father, but at a minimum cased the need for the “Restoration”.

Do any agree, or can you offer more examples from the Bible that make clear that (although united) they are not the same being?

Unfortunately for your hypothesis, the introduction of false doctrine and those who believe those doctrines into the Christian faith are not reason for a "restoration".

As a matter of fact the Father seems to prefer allowing the doctrines and heretics to remain until the second coming. The desire of the angels to restore the correct doctrine is actively resisted by the Father.

Please do a careful reading of Matt. 13:24-30 for a timeline of how events unfold in the end times and the order of the Harvest.

[Rob Bowman]

ldsfaq:

You wrote (emphasis added):

Really....? That's interesting. I've been a mormon for some 30 years, and I've been an active on the net apologist for some 10 years, and I don't think I've EVER seen mormons having different beliefs concerning the nature of God, things that have been revealed anyway. Things that haven't been revealed, obviously there are going to be all kinds of views.

You shouldn't confuse your lack of understanding of mormonism with being the same as mormons having different beliefs with each other. FYI, I've also been in your religions. And even in the same religion a person can go Church to Church and there will be different beliefs on a subject. But, the same doesn't occur in mormonism, no matter the Church or the country, we all believe the same. Thus, you are wrong in your judgment.

CFR

The whole point of your religion, supposedly, is that you don't have the problem of differing doctrines resulting from a lack of present-day revelation to clarify such doctrinal issues and direct the church in unity as to what it should believe. In reality, Mormons even disagree among themselves as to what is revealed doctrine. The statement that was made, to which you are issuing a CFR, was simply that Mormons have different doctrinal beliefs ("And I have seen very different beliefs concerning the nature of God from Mormons"). Your qualification "things that have been revealed anyway" is weasel-wording, as seems to be confirmed by the fact that you immediately go on to assert in unqualified language that Mormons, unlike traditional Christians, do not have differing beliefs.

In any case, as for your CFR, look no further than the current thread on the King Follett Discourse, where even with the qualification concerning revealed doctrines the reality is illustrated that Mormons do have different doctrinal positions on the nature of God.

[Palerider]

double post

Edited November 6, 2011 by Palerider

[KevinG]

Actually, no you can't. Our theology is very clearly defined to all members and unless you ask a complete newbie or a total inactive 'member' you'll get the same answer.

...or an apologist.

While it is easy to find diverse views on the minutae of Mormonism (hemospheric models, the nature of godhood, etc.) the basic doctrines and beliefs relating to our salvation in Christ are very consistent and available for all the world to see.

Apologetics is an exercise in nit picking and some of our members and critics are expert in that. For the average Saint those kinds of intellectual diversions are not usually concerns given they have no bearing on our salvation.

Edited November 6, 2011 by DaddyG

[altersteve]

This is not Trinitarian doctrine or belief.

I never said it is. I said that that's what people think it is.

God reveals Who He IS. God IS, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can't say He IS something, and then say He is not. THAT is confusion.

Godhead does not say to me God IS, it says, Gods ARE.

Fine. That's what Godhead says to you. That doesn't mean it says the same to us.

My point is, is that as far as I'm concerned, I have not spoken to one person who has not failed to show how the Trinity doctrine and the LDS doctrine of God's oneness are as different as people say they are. Both Trinitarians and Latter-day Saints believe:

• The Father is God,
  
• the Son is God, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is God; however,
  
• the Father is not the Son,
  
• the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is not the Father.
  

So where do we differ exactly?

Edited November 6, 2011 by altersteve

[diglot]

Both Trinitarians and Latter-day Saints believe:

• The Father is God,
  
• the Son is God, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is God; however,
  
• the Father is not the Son,
  
• the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is not the Father.
  

So where do we differ exactly?

Well, for one, Mormon Christians believe the Father inhabits a corporeal body, whereas Mainstream Christians do not.

[altersteve]

Well, for one, Mormon Christians believe the Father inhabits a corporeal body, whereas Mainstream Christians do not.

Okay, fine. I still don't see how that's as big of a difference as you say it is. But maybe that's just because we're looking at it from two different perspectives.

[saemo]

I never said it is. I said that that's what people think it is.

Fine. That's what Godhead says to you. That doesn't mean it says the same to us.

My point is, is that as far as I'm concerned, I have not spoken to one person who has not failed to show how the Trinity doctrine and the LDS doctrine of God's oneness are as different as people say they are. Both Trinitarians and Latter-day Saints believe:

• The Father is God,
  
• the Son is God, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is God; however,
  
• the Father is not the Son,
  
• the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and
  
• the Holy Ghost is not the Father.
  

So where do we differ exactly?

God IS One. I don't see how a Mormon ever explains this without dividing the One True God, into three Gods.

One being is not three beings. You are one being, one person. God has revealed Himself as One Being, three Persons. Mormons profess God as three beings, three persons...at least, with a belief in multiple gods, of who knows how many.

This is not possible. There can only be One All Powerful, as more than One All Powerful immediately cancels what it means to be All Powerful.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Your three questions regarding Matthew 28:18 appear below, followed by my answers and then my questions for you.

Question 1: When was Jesus given "all power"?

A better translation would be "all authority" (the Greek word is exousia). Jesus was given all authority in the specific sense and way meant here (see below) at his resurrection. Question for you: If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth?

Question 2: Why was it needed for Jesus to be given "all power"?

Having humbled himself for our salvation, he had placed himself in a position of dependence on the Father to vindicate, glorify, and honor him. The text does not mean that Jesus was less than God before his incarnation or resurrection. Question for you: When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?

Question 3: Who gave Jesus "all power"?

The Father gave him "all authority," as explained above. Questions for you: In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now? Does Heavenly Mother? Do any other Gods have all power?

[Vance]

Vance,

Your three questions regarding Matthew 28:18 appear below, followed by my answers and then my questions for you.

Question 1: When was Jesus given "all power"?

A better translation would be "all authority" (the Greek word is exousia). Jesus was given all authority in the specific sense and way meant here (see below) at his resurrection.

So, then there was a time that Jesus LACKED "all authority" in some so called "specific sense" which you don't or can't indentify even though you give the impressiont that it is found somewhere below. So really, you are just blowing smoke again to distract from the fact that Jesus LACKED " all authority and had to be given it.

Thanks for the admission that Jesus did indeed lack "all authority".

Question for you: If Jesus was Jehovah, the God of heaven and earth, before he became a man, how could he have lacked all power in heaven and earth?

Irrelevant to the fact that you just admitted that Jesus lacked "all authority". But it is a nice red herring. Besides, the premise to your question hasn't been established.

Question 2: Why was it needed for Jesus to be given "all power"?

Having humbled himself for our salvation, he had placed himself in a position of dependence on the Father to vindicate, glorify, and honor him. The text does not mean that Jesus was less than God before his incarnation or resurrection.

Again, you are just blowing smoke here to distract from the fact that Jesus didn't have "all authority" BECAUSE HE LACKED IT.

Your bloviating speculation as to why that might be is not supported by scripture and logic, you must, AGAIN, PRESUME it.

Question for you: When Jesus was on earth as a mortal, was he, at that time, in your opinion a God?

Irrelevant, again. The problem here is yours not mine. It is you that makes an irreconcilable difference between God and man, and then say such stupid things as Jesus was fully God and fully man.

If Jesus was "fully God" then why did He lack "all authority"?

Question 3: Who gave Jesus "all power"?

The Father gave him "all authority," as explained above.

Thank you for this admission. So it makes it clear.

Jesus DID NOT HAVE "all authority". As far as we can tell, he was give "all authority" after His resurrection. And the Father, who had "all authority" the whole time (being a seperate person,entity,individual,being) gave "all authority" to the Son, who, (being a seperate person, entity, individual,being) didn't have it.

Questions for you: In your opinion, does the Holy Ghost have "all power" now?

Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring.

Does Heavenly Mother?

Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring. And your mocking tone didn't go unnoticed.

Do any other Gods have all power?

Irrelevant to the topic at hand, but a nice red herring. And your mocking tone didn't go unnoticed.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Vance

[Storm Rider]

Well, for one, Mormon Christians believe the Father inhabits a corporeal body, whereas Mainstream Christians do not.

Is that meaningful to you? Why would it be?

[altersteve]

God IS One. I don't see how a Mormon ever explains this without dividing the One True God, into three Gods.

One being is not three beings. You are one being, one person. God has revealed Himself as One Being, three Persons. Mormons profess God as three beings, three persons...at least, with a belief in multiple gods, of who knows how many.

This is not possible. There can only be One All Powerful, as more than One All Powerful immediately cancels what it means to be All Powerful.

Except that "being" and "person" are synonymous. We believe the Godhead to be three distinct, separate beings/persons, yet one God. Each member is "a god" because He can be referred to as God. They can also be referred to as God collectively. They are still one. God is one. How difficult is that to understand?

Also, we don't believe that there is more than One All Powerful. That title belongs to the God of gods: our Heavenly Father. All other "gods" have the amount of power that He gives them, and no more.

Edited November 7, 2011 by altersteve

[diglot]

Is that meaningful to you? Why would it be?

I find the issue of the incorporeality of God to be meaningful to a degree. However, most mainstream Christians think it is a very critical issue concerning God.

[ldsfaqs]

ldsfaq:

The whole point of your religion, supposedly, is that you don't have the problem of differing doctrines resulting from a lack of present-day revelation to clarify such doctrinal issues and direct the church in unity as to what it should believe.

That's one of the main points yes.

In reality, Mormons even disagree among themselves as to what is revealed doctrine.

Only in relation to the KFD idea and individuals..... The Church itself however is clear in the matter.

There isn't anything else doctrinal that LDS disagree among themselves about, save some fringe.

Further, some fringe on the Internet believing something isn't Mormons either.

The statement that was made, to which you are issuing a CFR, was simply that Mormons have different doctrinal beliefs ("And I have seen very different beliefs concerning the nature of God from Mormons"). Your qualification "things that have been revealed anyway" is weasel-wording, as seems to be confirmed by the fact that you immediately go on to assert in unqualified language that Mormons, unlike traditional Christians, do not have differing beliefs.

We don't have different beliefs when it comes to the basics. Whether the Father was once a man is a "tradition" in mormonism, not a doctrine. It's always been that way. And my words are not "weasel-wording" slimeball....... It's simply the facts. God has restored everything that's important. He obviously hasn't revealed all truth of the universe. So, how are my words weasel-wording???

In any case, as for your CFR, look no further than the current thread on the King Follett Discourse, where even with the qualification concerning revealed doctrines the reality is illustrated that Mormons do have different doctrinal positions on the nature of God.

No we don't..... We all believe he has a body, thus how do we have actual different "doctrinal" positions??? Every mormon believes the same exact FUNDAMENTALS..... Whether God lived on an earth etc. is not "doctrine" and never has been. It is not a FUNDAMENTAL... Do you understand the difference??? LDS have speculated by inspiration on all kinds of things, and even got some things wrong such as some of the reasons speculated for the Priesthood ban. I know as an anti-mormon, you like to make every word a mormon says as doctrine, and differences, but the Church is separate from those views sorry to tell you.

Our fundamentals are believed the same exact by every mormon. But the same cannot be said about other religions. I know this for a fact because I've been in them.

[saemo]

Except that "being" and "person" are synonymous. We believe the Godhead to be three distinct, separate beings/persons, yet one God. Each member is "a god" because He can be referred to as God. They can also be referred to as God collectively. They are still one. God is one. How difficult is that to understand?

Also, we don't believe that there is more than One All Powerful. That title belongs to the God of gods: our Heavenly Father. All other "gods" have the amount of power that He gives them, and no more.

Well, there is where we differ, and it is quite a difference. There is no "God of gods" in Christianity, there is but One God, Who IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

From the Athanasian creed:

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

Edited November 7, 2011 by saemo

[Log]

• The Father is God.
  
• The Son is God.
  
• The Holy Spirit is God.
  
• The Father is not the Son.
  
• The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
  
• The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
  
• There is exactly one God.
  

It seems I should repost this. Taken jointly, these statements are logically contradictory (that is, without equivocation, they are logically inconsistent).

[Bubblewrapmyhead212]

Well, there is where we differ, and it is quite a difference. There is no "God of gods" in Christianity, there is but One God, Who IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

From the Athanasian creed:

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

But what about Deuteronomy 10:17 or Joshua 22:22?

Yes The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE... in purpose and that is to bring about the eternal life of man. I don't understand how Christ can be of the same substance/person/being as the Father and yet prays "let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." He wasn't having a conversation with HImself. This was a child pleeding to his dad, and in the end obeying and honering his parent.

[altersteve]

Well, there is where we differ, and it is quite a difference. There is no "God of gods" in Christianity, there is but One God, Who IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Then what do you make of Deuteronomy 10:17?

"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:"